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Absolutely loved going through this thread
These were the days, brings back some good memories.
Indeed – a very good read. Though not for all I might suggest!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Confirming what we all knew I suppose but very nice anyway!
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"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
At last they have it right. Dancing Brave’s form NEVER worked out to 141. He beat about eight horses about four or five lengths were that many horses in one races all 130’s horses? Of course not.
I think they now have the ratings spot on. It’s been a common belief that ratings from the 1980’s in particular had been "wrong", now at last everything looks right.
Yes though he is retired Jonibake,you can still see the champ first up next month in the newly named ‘Black Caviar’ Lightning Stks Group 1 at Flemington.Though she came back into the stables weighing 610kg.That is a bit heavier then when she ‘TRAVELLED’ to England unlike some
No doubt a Jonibake bite Yes though he is retired Jonibake,you can still see the champ first up next month in the newly named ‘Black Caviar’ Lightning Stks Group 1 at Flemington.Though she came back into the stables weighing 610kg.That is a bit heavier then when she ‘TRAVELLED’ to England unlike some
No doubt a Jonibake bite Ha ha.
I actually think Black Caviar has a claim to be the best sprinter of all time. I’ve tried rating her alongside Dayjur but the problem is sprint form rarely stacks up its so difficult to rate.
If there’s one race I would’ve loved to see it is Black Caviar vs Dayjur over five or six furlongs.
Personal opinion, I think Black Caviar may have edged it …. just!
One thing for sure, we are currently living in a golden era akin to that of 1970-1972.
Yes though he is retired Jonibake,you can still see the champ first up next month in the newly named ‘Black Caviar’ Lightning Stks Group 1 at Flemington.Though she came back into the stables weighing 610kg.That is a bit heavier then when she ‘TRAVELLED’ to England unlike some
No doubt a Jonibake bite I can’t wait to see the Greatest (Female) Flat Horse of all time again Jolly! Seriously – mouth watering prospect. Can’t wait.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Well i know the owners are keen to send Black Caviar to Frankel.If you want to see not only the best ‘Female’ but also the best horse on the planet Joni you will have to wait and see if Atlantic Jewel comes back from her tendon injury.Seriously Atlantic Jewel is the best horse this country has produced,she could win a 6f or 12f Group 1 on the same day,i have never seen another horse who could do that.If all is well she will be back racing next Spring here Sept,Oct,Nov .
Really folks, let’s be honest about it. Comparing horses with ratings is an exercise in futility. Timeform ratings has Tudor Minstrel on 144. We have hardly no video footage of Tudor Minstrel let alone still shots. On 142 is Abernant and Windy City, two horses you would be lucky to see a page on the Net. Of Course on the same mark is Ribot, a champion, who has been well documented. All I am saying is as the years go by and new generations of racegoers come on the scene opinions can become a touch clouded. I think that Dancing Brave was a very, very good horse. I don’t think he was a champion though. His Arc win was outstanding. His King George win was super. Sea Bird’s assessment was really only based on two runs. The Derby and Arc. Brigadier Gerard. Beaten once in his life (by Roberto) and in my opinion deserved the same rating as Sea Bird who was also beaten once in his career. As to the quality of opposition that these horses beat can be left to debate at the local pub.
All ratings are subjective to some degree. The backtracking over Dancing Brave’s rating would not have happened had Frankel not painted the handicapper into a corner.
The backtracking over Dancing Brave’s rating would not have happened had Frankel not painted the handicapper into a corner.
Am not sure you’re right there David. Talk about how Dancing Brave was over-rated has gone on for some time; not only around forums but also amongst ratings compilers. May be it took Frankel for them to get around to it.
Travesty of justice had Frankel not ended up top of the ratings. Handicappers know Dancing Brave was over-rated. Don’t get me wrong, he’s one of my favourite horses. A picture of him winning the Arc holds pride of place above my fireplace. An "I was there" moment at Newmarket in 1986 (and Goodwood’s Select Stakes)… The 1986 Arc collectively THE best quality race I’ve ever seen. An outstanding racehorse, but did he really deserve the 141 given by the old International Classifications?
International Classifications at the end of that year gave:
Dancing Brave 141, Bering 134, Shahrastani 134, Shardari 132, Triptych 130 (equivelent to 133 remembering 3 lbs can be added for her sex). Presumably they rated Shahrastani as running a pound below his best in the Arc.Dancing Brave won by 1 1/2 lengths from Bering with 1/2 length to Triptych, head to Shahrastani and neck to Shardari.
Is the 1 1/2 lengths really worth 7 lbs? Graham Goode commentating described Pat Eddery as "going for everything". Yes, it’s possible to say he won with a bit in hand at the line, but only a "bit". At 1m4f 1 1/2 lengths is equal to 3 lbs if both winner and second are all out.
How much did Dancing Brave have in hand? Should he be rated as worth over double the actual winning distance back to the second?
You be the judge.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=006B8vgTLs0
Value Is EverythingToo many variables to take Timeform as the be all and end all.If you consider that Dayjur was given a highest 137 rating compared to Black Caviar 136,you cant compare the 2 horses records.One had 11 starts beaten 4 times,the other undefeated after 22 and 12 Group 1 wins.Cigar given a 138 and he wasn’t much good on turf,so it can be misleading.
At last they have it right. Dancing Brave’s form NEVER worked out to 141. He beat about eight horses about four or five lengths were that many horses in one races all 130’s horses? Of course not.
I think they now have the ratings spot on. It’s been a common belief that ratings from the 1980’s in particular had been "wrong", now at last everything looks right.
Think this is why Arkle is such a mystical horse in National Hunt. He was giving weight and a beating to some bloody good horses.
I know people wax about Frankel’s Ascot performance but for me it was York. The whole day was just a dream come true
All ratings are subjective to some degree. The backtracking over Dancing Brave’s rating would not have happened had Frankel not painted the handicapper into a corner.
Yes it seems like although they have known for some time that there is a disparity with the old ratings and the new, they have always been reluctant to change them until Frankel came along.
I am sure they knew it would cause a bit of a stir and also open them up for criticism. A number of people on the RP website are upset that DB has had his figures trimmed 27 years after the event and they have my sympathy. But the handicappers have conceded that the techniques used then are not the techniques used now so, to get a true picture, they would either have to go back to the old way, do nothing and pretend, or change them retrospectively. Until Frankel there was no need to change them as DB was still the best even under the new system but I can’t help feeling they have now done the right thing. Probably should have done it as soon as the system changed mind!
Anyway, as Corm says it is all subjective but at least it’s got us talking about the flat again! And my favourite horse obviously.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Too many variables to take Timeform as the be all and end all.If you consider that Dayjur was given a highest 137 rating compared to Black Caviar 136,you cant compare the 2 horses records.One had 11 starts beaten 4 times,the other undefeated after 22 and 12 Group 1 wins.Cigar given a 138 and he wasn’t much good on turf,so it can be misleading.
Jollyp,
Number of wins has absolutely nothing to do with Timeform ratings. If a horse who does not improve its performance to win a second, third or twenty-second time – then it does not improve its Timeform rating. Because the rating must show how much any horse has in hand/to find against the other horses in a race.If horse A gives horse B a pound beating in a race where both produce their best. Horse A then goes on to win three races in quick succession with inferior performances before meeting horse B again. Horse B hasn’t raced since. There is obviously NO reason to rate A any more than 1 lb better than horse B if weights are the same. ie If A was rated any differently it would not give a fair picture of its superiority.
Timeform ratings are also for each horse’s optimum conditions; whether that’s on turf, polytrack or dirt, at whatever distance or going. Dayjur was best at sprint distances; so defeats at 7f+ and unlucky Breeders Cup run on dirt have nothing to do with his rating. Am sure you’d cry foul if Black Caviar was rated on her British Golden Jubilee run where well below form.
You also fail to point out that had Dayjur and Black Caviar been able to race against each other in a Group 1 race – it would be the Australian mare who’s Timeform TOP RATED, because of the sex allowance. You should consider Black Caviar’s timeform rating as
139
NOT 136, which is 2 lbs AHEAD of Dayjur.
Value Is EverythingI’m glad Frankel has now usurped Dancing Brave at the top of the ratings. Most deserving. I’m with dear old Ginge on this: Dancing Brave was overrated, if ever so slightly. His legacy rests solely on one brilliant performance in Paris.
European wise, Sea Bird ( still the best ever mile and a half performer, bar none imo ), Ribot, Mill Reef, Nijinsky, Brigadier Gerard and Sea The Stars ( YES ! him too ) I also consider to be superior to Dancing Brave.
Yes, ratings are subjective – to an extent – but an objective view must also be taken into consideration, otherwise there would be mayhem.
I also think Lochsong (as well as Dayjur) would have beaten Black Caviar – and if you listen to some of the more knowledgeable old timers, then Abernant would have thrashed all of them without turning a hair.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Too many variables to take Timeform as the be all and end all.If you consider that Dayjur was given a highest 137 rating compared to Black Caviar 136,you cant compare the 2 horses records.One had 11 starts beaten 4 times,the other undefeated after 22 and 12 Group 1 wins.Cigar given a 138 and he wasn’t much good on turf,so it can be misleading.
Jollyp,
Number of wins has absolutely nothing to do with Timeform ratings. If a horse who does not improve its performance to win a second, third or eleventh time – then it does not improve its Timeform rating. Because the rating must show how much any horse has in hand/to find against the other horses in a race. The rating is also for each horse’s optimum conditions; whether that’s on turf, polytrack or dirt, at whatever distance or going. Dayjur was best at sprint distances; so defeats at 7f+ and unlucky Breeders Cup run on dirt have nothing to do with his rating. Am sure you’d cry foul if Black Caviar was rated on her British Golden Jubilee run where well below form.You also fail to point out that had Dayjur and Black Caviar been able to race against each other in a Group 1 race – it would be the Australian mare who’s Timeform TOP RATED, because of the sex allowance. You should consider Black Caviar’s timeform rating as
139
NOT 136, which is 2 lbs AHEAD of Dayjur.
GT there are 3 certainties in life,’death,taxes and you replying to a Timeform post
! i am well aware that these ratings are on individual performance and Dayjur doesn’t measure up to Black Caviar, think Lightning Stks or Newmarket 58kg’s giving up to 7kg’s away running 1 min 7.3 and bolting in,Dayjur couldn’t do that.I also know that ratings are taken on all types of surfaces,my point was Cigar was no good on turf.Would Frankel have been any good on dirt? My point being variables,and Tulloch and Kingston Town beneath some of those horses please! Both put in several stunning performances and were top rung world class.
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