June 22, 2007 at 22:01 #65640Maxilon 5Member
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I suspect most of us are passive-aggressive when it comes to jockeys.
It’s no wonder that all jockeys have a Kipling-esque attitude toward punters, (unlike footballers who always profess a love of the supporters of which ever club they happen to be passing through at the time).
When do you ever hear an interviewed jockey say "These punters at Ponte! They send a shiver down my spine. I want to win this for them" or "Taunton gamblers are the finest in the world. I always love riding favourites here"
I personally love them when they fill my wallet (Joe Fanning on Boscobel), and hate them when they empty it, (Joe Fanning on Rosein two back at Southwell).
Objectively, as Wallace says, I don’t consider there’s 5lb between them. Well done Fortune backers.:biggrin:June 23, 2007 at 12:15 #65641
Quote: from Wallace on 9:03 pm on June 21, 2007[br]I think the fact the Fortune is top of the table at Ascot this week highlights horses win races and jockeys are bit part players. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â He’s a run of the mill pro jockey who has been lucky to be riding more of the better horses than others.
I`ve seen Fortune slagged off on this forum not very long ago. <br>Please name the jockey who could have taken <br>his rides and won this week? You cant, because no one did.<br>You cant take that away from Jimmy Fortune.June 23, 2007 at 13:21 #65642
sporting sam, I am not slagging off Fortune for what he has achieved this week. Any of the pro jockeys at the meeting would have won on his mounts. He was on the best horses in the races he won.
If you can demonstrate how to quantify jockey performances then let us have it.<br>June 23, 2007 at 14:06 #65643ArtemisParticipant
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I agree that Fortune was on the best horse in the races he’s won and that any of about 10 jockeys could have done the same job, except perhaps where knowledge of a particular horse may have helped him.
As well as jockeyship, I think you also seem to believe most trainers have limited influence on how their horses perform. This is another area where it is difficult to quantify ability because certain trainers tend to get the best horses and training horses is very much a team effort. That said, I tend(instinctively) to think that there are good trainers and some who are not so good.
Jockeys for courses is logical and so is trainers for courses.June 23, 2007 at 19:35 #65644
Quote: from Wallace on 2:21 pm on June 23, 2007[br]sporting sam, I am not slagging off Fortune for what he has achieved this week. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Any of the pro jockeys at the meeting would have won on his mounts. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â He was on the best horses in the races he won.<br>If you can demonstrate how to quantify jockey performances then let us have it.
Full House 20/1 sp<br>Tariq 15/2<br>Nanina 3/1 co fav<br>Royal Oath 9/1<br>Winker Watson 2/1 fav
Wallace I see one favourite and a co fav in that list.
Quantify Jockey Performance?<br>Did any pro Jockey try to get Fortune Jocked off any of his rides?<br>No, they were happy with their rides. <br>Two excellent displays of Jockeyship available to study William Buick and Johnny Murtagh today. They were not on favourites either. To say any of the pro jockeys would have won on his mounts is pure nonsense as they lost on horses in the same races at lesser prices<br> in most cases when they were fully expected by all and sundry to win. (With the exception of LGR, Doyley and several other TRFers!!)
Ask any Jockey if they thought they would have won on all or any of Fortunes mounts I think their reply would be most interesting. <br>Fair play Wallace its your opinion.June 23, 2007 at 20:53 #65645davidjohnsonMember
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Some bizarre statements there as justification for your points sporting sam. 3 of those 5 are Gosden trained so Fortune was bound to ride them as stable jockey. Anyone ringing up to jock him off would have had the phone slammed down on them pretty quick.
Royal Oath won the Hunt Cup because it was about a stone well in, not because it was ridden by Jimmy Fortune.June 23, 2007 at 21:16 #65646
Do you know of any jockeys who tried to get on other horses at the meeting? You canÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t know the answer to this and the point is irrelevant.
ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…â€œTo say any of the pro jockeys would have won on his mounts is pure nonsense as they lost on horses in the same races at lesser pricesÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚ÂJune 24, 2007 at 08:43 #65647
I`m sure Fortune would be happy to be seen as the top run of the mill Jockey at Ascot.<br>You cannot take that away.<br>If you cannot quantify the performance of a jockey thats fine neither can I.<br>The horse can have the raw ability but the Trainer, stable and Jockey must help get the horse there.<br>As stable Jockey as David pointed out to three of the horses He would have done plenty of work with the Horses. <br>Success is down to the work put put in and a little good Fortune.<br>June 26, 2007 at 08:15 #65648guskennedyMember
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Our own Zorro gave Fortune a very easy ride in his article in yesterday’s Post, particularly in relation to his performance on Winker Watson: "…he drove Winker Watson into the lead in the Norfolk, and then skilfully, with the strength that’s long been typical of him, maintained the colt’s momentum while preventing him from rolling on to those he was in the process of beating."
It’s funny how people see things differently. I saw a jockey hitting his horse with the whip in the right hand, continuing to do so even after the horse started hanging violently left, eventually putting his whip down because he had to as a result of which the horse straightened up and then starting to hit the horse again with his whip still in his right hand as the line approached. He was extremely fortunate that the horse was clear of his rivals.
It reminded me of the 2005 King Edward VII Stakes at York except that on that occasion Fortune’s mount, Plea Bargain, wasn’t clear of his rivals. There, as at Ascot, Fortune continued to use his whip in his right (wrong) hand even after Plea Bargain started to hang violently towards the far rail. He was lucky that the horse he badly hampered – The Geezer – was clearly going nowhere at the time and so Plea Bargain kept the race.
The race was analysed on the following day’s Morning Line and, to his credit, John Francome had a right go at Fortune. He took the view that Fortune couldn’t – as opposed to wouldn’t – pull his whip through and categorised his ride as "embarrassing."
After his ride last Thursday, Fortune muttered something along the lines of "I should have pulled my whip through" when interviewed on the BBC. Watching it again, I reckon he may have tried to do so and failed. One thing is for sure: if there had been anything close enough on the inside of Winker Watson last week they’d have been taken out.
I think Fortune lacks a cool head in the closing stages of big races. He’s not a top jockey, for me.June 26, 2007 at 08:32 #65649
I agree with your excellent post gus.
Far too many people are blinkered to the extent they think jockeys win all the races. Virtually every day we hear of X giving his horse a great ride and little said about the other member of the partnership.June 26, 2007 at 08:45 #65650ArtemisParticipant
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Good post, gus.
I didn’t see any of this, so I’ll have a look at it.
Most of my experiences of Fortune’s riding have been very positive, but I’m always open to change my mind in the face of new evidence. I probably wouldn’t condemn anyone for a few poor rides, but every ride has some bearing on my opinion.June 27, 2007 at 12:11 #65651andyodMember
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I believe most jockeys are as likely to lose a race as to win it. I am reminded of Ruffians trainer ‘s instructions to his jockey…."don’t ****
it up"August 11, 2007 at 14:08 #111098guskennedyMember
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C4 this morning showed Dutch Art’s race in France. I hadn’t seen it before. In the light of Fortune’s performance there and also using as evidence his performance on Polar Circle at Newmarket on 30th June, I’m now inclined to agree with John Francome in that I don’t think Jimmy Fortune is capable of pulling his whip through from his right to his left hand. It’s a bit of a problem for a so-called top jockey.
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