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I haven’t seen the interview, but it sounds typical of general sports thinking, not just in racing.
Women can learn the formbook, jockey colours, offside rule, etc., as well as any man if they want to. The difference is most women aren’t that interested in sports to want to. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t women out there who are as devoted to their sport as any man and who could comment very well, thank you.
The only woman to racecall a race as far as I know was Mrs. Topham on the National one year back in the 30’s when I think she was in dispute with the BBC over something to do with the coverage so she did it herself. Even at that time the attitude was that women’s voices wouldn’t be acceptable to viewers and, unfortunately, her garbled attempt only confirmed that opinion. That view hasn’t changed in however many years since!
To say women can’t racecall or describe any other sport just because of their voice is like saying women can’t ride racehorses because they’re not as strong. Remember that argument? Now, some 20-30 odd years later from the first women jockeys finally being allowed to at least try we finally have good flat and jump women jockeys who can beat the best of them. If a woman’s voice is acceptable for quoting odds, how can it not be for reading a race? McCrirrick raises his voice and gets excited often enough, but no one says he shouldn’t comment because of it (yes, I know there are people out there who think he shouldn’t comment at all, but I’m making a single point here). Other male commentators do too, but they’re not chucked off air. Why should a woman’s voice be any different.
And as for not ever receiving a demo tape for becoming a commentator, why bother? With the field so completely dominated by men, why would women even think it worth their while? After all, there are no women commentators so why would they think they could be one?
Nearly all sports are dominated by men from the players to the commentators to the people who run the individual sports. There are some women, but the numbers are very small. Are there any women on the BHA, Jockey Club, HRI or any other major racing establishment – I doubt it.
Unfortunately, it’s discrimination by omission with no encouragement to get women involved in the first place. I think it’s a shame in this day and age that we don’t have some women actually commentating on the majority of sporting events. I don’t hold with special events for anybody – if you’re good enough you shouldn’t need that kind of help. But I also think we need a much more open minded approach – just because something has been done for ??? years, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be tried. There are women out there who’d like to have a go, I’m sure, if only they were given the encouragement to come forward. They certainly can’t be worse than the Irish commentators, most of whom seem to miss half of what’s happening on their TV screens.
And yes, I did think at one time I’d like to be like Peter O’Sullevan, commentating on the races. It was short-lived I admit as I’m not really a form follower, I just love the sport. But how many others might there be out in the wide world who’d jump at the chance. Maybe ATR should start a recruitment campaign?
Well worth a listen if you don’t remember it, it was awful stuff, went right through me. The only way I can think of describing it was if someone was squeezing his goolies very hard while he was doing it. No woman could have sounded worse. Quite a difference from his commentary on Sea The Stars Arc the year before when he sounded as if he was nodding off.
Was is that "Robin" bloke who does the Sunday commentary from France each week during their flat season?
He was in top form yesterday, learning his colours live on air, advising us all that "Russian" Caviar is the best sprinter in the world, never mentioning Captain Dunne or Spilt Trois in commentary during the sprint and opining that Paul Hanagan should have held up WB out the back and "let him come through horses".
Commentary is not an easy job, but this bloke is lucky to be let on a racecourse imo.
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I think there’s something in the argument that women might not be suited to racecalling because of vocal pitch. Take someone like Des Scahill, when his commentary starts it’s at an even & low pitch but come an exciting finish & he’s breaking an oscilloscope.
Poor old Des is proof of life after death as far as his current skill level is concerned. The words
"should"
,
"retire"
and
"gracefully"
come to mind in no particular order.
The vocal pitch argument holds no water, as (unless you’re terminally deaf) the octave or so difference between male and female pitch makes no odds, and decibel levels from female vocal equipment are higher rather than lower. So they ought to be clearer, if anything.
This kind of special pleading aside, the whole "debate" smacks of a pleasantly antiquated prejudice and chauvinism. If you gave someone of the quality of Clare Balding the chance, she’d wipe the floor with her BBC male commentator colleagues.
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I think it’s a shame in this day and age that we don’t have some women actually commentating on the majority of sporting events.
It is difficult enough for a male to break into sports commentary, especially if they have never competed in their chosen field at the top level. Why should a woman be given a golden ticket? Why shouldn’t they prove themsleves via an encyclopedic knowledge of and dedication to the sport they wish to comment on? Do we just want pretty dilletantes on the airwaves? What’s wrong with people applying themsleves and being appointed on merit?
I believe there is no impediment to anyone, male or female, if they are prepared to work hard enough and acquire the level of knowledge required. Just be prepared to put in a lot of free hours to achieve your goals. As for the level of nepotism in sports commentry what’s wrong with rewarding those that have dedicated their lives to a game with a job upon retirement? Those people have a level of inside knowledge and experience that others simply cannot match.
Clare Balding and Sue Barker didn’t get their jobs out of the blue. They both speak very well. They live and breath their sport like any male professional. They both got there on merit. So should anyone that follows in their footsteps.
On a final note the outing and dismissal of two male commentators from the football world for their persistent discriminatory remarks should sound a warning to the "old boys network". Grow up and get into the 21st Century gentlemen! The door has never been more open to females that can prove themselves worthy. Anyone that does make the grade cannot expect an easy ride though.
Crikey –
The Guardian bloke (Will Hayler) has just said (while outlining obstacles to female commentators being successful) ‘you need an in-depth knowledge of the form-book to be a racing commentator, you can’t just turn up, you need to know a bit about these people and these horses to be able to do the job properly’
Any thoughts girls?
Hmmmm,
I did hear the whole conversation on ATR.
I got the impression Mr Hayler was commenting on thetime frame
rather than
"women"
commentators. Matt Chapman (who has done a bit of training) even said it normally takes years to train for the job.
So (if I am right) Mr Hayler was commenting about the fact they are trying to fast track a commentator (any commentator), so would have little time to learn their form book. Not an anti-women comment at all.
It had not occured to me pitch could be a disadvantage. But there might be something in the voice arguement. Some jobs the usual women’s voice is naturally more suited to. A softer voice is thought better when talking to young children, so a Nursery worker / teacher is (possibly) better suited to the average woman. That is not to say a man could not do the job equally as well.
May be if a woman with a slihghtly lower voice than the average female could be well suited to the commentator’s job. Though even a high pitched commentator should have the opportunity and should not be pre-judged. I am all for women being encouraged to do the job. But they should not get preferencial treatment. ie Not fast-tracked. Anyone (male or female) fast-tracked is less likely to make the grade.
Value Is EverythingOh dear – apologies to Mr Hayler if that was the case GT.
I did kind of assume that might have been what he was driving at(that trying to unearth
anybody
as a commentator at the drop of a hat was unrealistic) but thought he’d rather clumsily articulated it. He seems a nice chap, I’m sure I’m the clumsy one in my interpretation. Interesting topic though.
Mirabel Topham. If you haven’t read ‘Queen Bee’, her story, you should, great reading for National fans. I’ve heard her GN commentary. Entertaining – but you wouldn’t want her doing the Hunt Cup.
Some great Mirabel Topham stuff here – including William Hill interview. Not much has changed. Racecourse Vs Bookie with Bookie well in charge.
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=32754
Clare Balding would be my choice for commentating on the horse racing…
sad to say I don’t think there are that many others that could do it justice.Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...ATR now, Liz Price very good.
Lydia Hislop one of the best presenters / journalists around and agree Clare Balding excellent (though had to dum down her racing knowledge to satisfy BBC demands to appeal to masses)
Some very brave ladies have put themselves into the firing line and provided some commentaries which are now available on the ‘Love The Races’ site.
Fair play to them.
So, if you’ve wondered what the Queen Anne would have sounded like with a female commentator, here’s your chance to find out(look out for ‘oooh, who else have we got…’.)
Also keep an eye out for a TRF’er in amongst them.
I think there’s something in the argument that women might not be suited to racecalling because of vocal pitch
I agree with you Anthony.
I think that at the end of a race, particularly with a close finish, that commentary needs to excite it’s audience and build to a climax but to me, this wouldn’t work with a female voice and would sound as if bordering on the hysterical. This, of course, is not the fault of the sisterhood, it’s just the way it is. There are also several male commentators I don’t like listening to, but for other reasons – they are either tediously banal or their descriptive ability is sadly lacking, even in supplying accurate information about which horse is doing what.
There was a Football commentator on the BBC called Jacqui Oatley who got the big because she was a woman but it never really worked and she basically shrieked whenever a player had a shot – and I fear that this is what would happen in a close finish.
From a presenting perspective I think that there are several girls who do a better job than the men, Lydia Hislop and Clare Balding spring instantly to mind. But if I want to listen to a hysterical woman I will talk to the ex-wife.
OMG
It puts me in mind of ‘The Final Dig’ by The Twelfth Man where he has to sit through audition tapes for prospective cricket commentators.
Almost as worrying (for me at least) on the site was Dave Crosse’s blog inviting us to "Stick with me, it’s going to get ridiculous!"
Great stuff.
Thought Emily and Karen did well. Andrea Howlett Davies started promisingly until Stripey Gomez appeared on the scene!
Really enjoyed listening to them, some good voices and I don’t think the much-touted pitch factor was a problem. A couple of season’s point-to-pointing and some expert tutelage from Hoiles/Hunt, etc, and who knows!
You can listen to some of the contenders here –
http://www.lovetheraces.com/the-filly-factor/
Entertaining stuff.
Do they really have just 12 entries, or is that merely a sample?
I’ve read the terms and conditions and the competition closes on the 21st May.
Best impression of this wins.
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You must be joking! Not a good or even passable caller among the lot of them. Too much attention to the colours and owners. One girl entirely makes up her own names for the horses. They all seem to have very little idea about the need to describe margins between runners and the pace of the race. One lady continually refers to RVW as Pipedreamer. Many get lost in over stating the importance of the race. One caller doesn’t mention a single horses name for the entire race. Goldikova is known to her as "the light blue rider".
If that’s an example of the quality on offer we wont be seeing or hearing any female race callers soon. OK lovetheraces.com don’t be so narrow minded and discriminatory. Broaden your horizons and bring on the cross dressers and transvestites immediately!
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