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I’ve noticed recently some discussion about the apparent ‘unfairness’ and potential prevention of horses being ridden over hurdles or fences to exploit a vastly lower handicap mark over one obstacle than the other. E.G Jack the Giant, Harris Bay.
Surely though, this is one of the arts of training horses – selecting races which may provide a victory for the horse, the owner and all connections?
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I’ve noticed recently some discussion about the apparent ‘unfairness’ and potential prevention of horses being ridden over hurdles or fences to exploit a vastly lower handicap mark over one obstacle than the other. E.G Jack the Giant, Harris Bay.
Surely though, this is one of the arts of training horses – selecting races which may provide a victory for the horse, the owner and all connections?
Aye, but not at the expense of the bookies ffs. Who do you think they run the sport for?
Im not sure really why Butler’s Cabin is in the race.
I personally like the look of Iron Man if Jack The Giant is going to be beaten.
I was also under the impression that Butler’s Cabin wouldn’t see a fence in public before the National weights were published. At first I was confused that he was in today’s contest at Leicester, then I saw that his OR went up a stone for the Irish National. He won’t be winning the big one off 149 so if I were Jonjo I’d be trying to whittle his mark down pronto.
On the issue at large, it makes perfect sense why connections should take that particular route, and I would never challenge it as the handicapper is often all too eager to stifle a horses’ chances of picking up future races IMO. However, it can be a bit of an annoyance in terms of study having to go back a full season in order to obtain some relevant form.
I’m also totally against this idea of stopping connections exploiting different handicap marks for hurdles and chasing- they are two different disciplines and I have no problem with a successful chaser returning to hurdles off a lower mark. The powers-that-be do seem overly bookie influenced and seem to want racing to become like BAGS dogs with all runners having an equal chance and the bookies betting 4/1 each of six. If that ever happens, I’m off!
The handicap mark is both one of the greatest strengths and one of the greatest weaknesses of racing in the UK.
As a strength, it allows all race horses to be placed within an official framework in terms of their ability. This in turn greatly eases the framing of competitive races (between horses of similar ability). On the downside, the success of a given horse and/or trainer is often largely dependent upon the careful exploitation of the handicap mark. If this exploitation is above board, so to speak, then all is well, it can even be a measure of the skill of the trainer. However, as we all know, quite often dubious practices are employed in order to disguise the true ability of an animal and this process gives the sport a bad name when it is occasionally exposed to public scrutiny
Unfortunately, it is difficult to see what could replace the handicap mark and have less problems!
…The powers-that-be do seem overly bookie influenced and seem to want racing to become like BAGS dogs with all runners having an equal chance and the bookies betting 4/1 each of six. If that ever happens, I’m off!
More like 7/2 each of six!
James Willoughby did a piece on this in the Post at the beginning of December.
He made the point, a good one in my opinion, that it should be a level playing for all the contestants in a race, and if a horse is racing off an old mark that takes no account of any improvement the horse has shown, albeit if that improvement had been accomplished in a different discipline, then that field ain’t level.
Colin.
Couldn’t disagree more. what do you suggest then- if a horse wins over fences and goes up 7lbs, its hurdles mark goes up the same? Some horses are useless over hurdles and are transformed by fences, some completely the opposite- you can’t equate the two. The fact that a relatively small number of horses exploit the difference in their marks successfully is not a reason to change the system for everybody- it works well enough for 95% of the horse population and the alternative would be completely unworkable and unfair.
I think you have to maintain two scales for hurdle-form and chase-form. Potentially, the handicapper should simply be very harsh after a comparatively lower mark has been exploited, possibly to the extent of restoring parity between the two ORs. This would realistically limit the effect to two wins (in most circumstances) including one with a penalty.
Recently, what we have tended to see is the exploitation of favourable hurdles marks by decent chasers. This tends to arise because they are lightly-raced as hurdlers before being sent chasing where they realise their potential more fully (rather than being deliberately campaigned to underperform). Nothing particularly underhand is occurring, and often these horses have already won over hurdles from very few starts.
In reverse (hurdlers placed to exploit lower chase marks), I am always slightly wary because there is normally a reason why their form over fences was poor – often due to jumping ability/technique or the lack thereof. Sometimes these issues are sorted out, but sometimes they are not and supposed good things are best laid or avoided…
"Couldn’t disagree more."
That’s allowed.
"what do you suggest then?"
Some time ago if the handicapper didn’t feel he had enough evidence to allot a weight to a horse, it was given automatic top-weight. Wouldn’t be popular but it would stop the present perceived exploitation.
Colin
Don’t even agre with that suggestion NV- so you’re saying that after one win in a lowly race by a horse with a 30lbs higher chase mark, it should go up 30lbs?
As I’ve said before, there isn’t a satisfactory solution that is better than the current system. You have a horse like Star de Mohasion, who’s progress over fences was as likely to natural progression than a switch in disciplines and taking advantage of a ridiculously low mark and then you have the likes of Truckers Tavern etc who are will always make better chasers so shouldn’t be penalised for better chase form when back over hurdles.
I am going to stay firmly planted on the fence as befits one in my position but would just like to say what a cracking thread this is. Excellent points on both sides.
It also helps me further my argument that surfing the internet in working hours is productive. Cheers! Happy New Year.
And to you, Marcus!
Given that you are somewhat bound and gagged on this issue, can you indicate (perhaps by winking or coughing or something) whether this issue is actively being discussed or reviewed at the moment?
It is in many ways similar to the all-weather -v- turf ratings on the flat, which were also exploited for a while (although are generally kept much closer nowadays).
Certainly, there seem to be more higher-profile examples of good chasers mopping up (or attempting to mop up) valuable handicap hurdles this season, and the attention of the world – or maybe just the uk racing world – has been firmly grabbed…
One of the problems with the current system – as I understand it – is that the marks of horses in the two different codes may be altered in one by reference to improvement/decline in the other at the discretion of the handicapper i.e there is no cast iron rule that states current chase form must be ignored when awarding a current hurdle mark, and vice versa.
In my opinion, for the sake of simplicity if nothing else, the handicaps should be kept entirely separate and when the not infrequent cases of improved chasers being returned to hurdles off a significantly lower mark come along, it should be accepted as ‘part of the game’ and from a betting point of view punters and the market en-masse should judge the horse accordingly: is it a Star de Mohaison or Truckers Tavern, to use davidjohnson’s examples.
Not up to speed with the workings of the Turf and AW handicaps but I assume they’re compiled in a similar way to those of the Hurdle and Chase handicaps. So, that being the case, presumably the occasional horse turns up ‘well in’ on improved form gained in a series of runs on one surface when returned to the other off that surface’s mark
Certainly, there seem to be more higher-profile examples of good chasers mopping up (or attempting to mop up) valuable handicap hurdles this season,
"Attempting" being the operative word. They’ve not all been going in by any stretch of the imagination (good evening, Marshall Hall).
Moreover, with several thousand handicaps run under either code during the course of a calendar year, the making of a change of the magnitude described to prevent, what, maybe a couple of dozen results regarded as significantly anomalous during that year, does not look like the ends justfying the means as far as I’m concerned.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
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