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Football – and back one of the big sides in the Carling Cup only for them to send out their reserves and get turned over?
that is as weak as it gets….
Of course the above responses were spot on, but can you tell me which of these teams didnt do their best to win?
"………….teams have to be made public at least 45 minutes before kick off."
I didn’t know that.
Colin
Sorry Colin, I mis-worded it. They have to be in to the authorities 45 minutes before kick off (i.e. the referee) – but as we know, in any ‘high ranking’ game, like an English cup game or a league game, it’s easy to find out what the team is before placing your bet.
Mike
I wasn’t disagreeing, Mike.
I genuinely didn’t realise that the teams had to be decided that much before kick-off.
Does that include subs………..what happens when someone injures themselves during warm-up, it has happened recently I believe, can the teams and subs then be changed.
Apologies for going off-topic.
Colin
It’s fine Colin,
Yes the team sheet has to be handed into the ref 45 minutes before the game (including subs). This is then checked and if all present and correct it is quickly circulated throughout the press and media, so within 5 minutes, the tv, radio stations, internet etc will have access to the team – therefore meaning we can find out what the team is also.
If a player gets injured in a warm up, a team can change that player right up until the kick-off – a rule that I dare say can be took advantage of, but I have never seen any real evidence of it happening.
Mike
Clive – you brought up the comparison with other sports as betting mediums. My point is that every sport requires savvy on the part of the punter to know which events are worth betting on and which aren’t.
Backing big sides in the early rounds of the Carling Cup is just one example. Ditto international friendlies, or end-of-season matches involving cup finalists. Dead rubbers too – I think it was Chelsea who lost their last two matches a couple of years back once they had secured the Premiership.
If you place a bet in any of these kinds of matches, you do so knowing that they are not being played in isolation and that one or more of the teams involved may have other, longer-term priorities.
In horse racing, the equivalent race is the 2yo maiden, particularly those involving debutants. If you back a horse in one of these races, you’ve got to do so with the knowledge that your selection may not be ridden as hard as you might like in order to win. All you can ask is that the horse is ridden out as per the rules which, as David mentions earlier in the thread, the horse in question was.
It’s just incredibly naive to expect otherwise – just as naive as it would be for someone new to football to back Man U to win a Carling Cup match without doing their homework and finding out that they usually don’t play their best side.
It’s not a perfect situation by any means, but it’s far from the nail in the coffin of horse racing as a betting medium that you’re suggesting it is, either.
"All you can ask is that the horse is ridden out as per the rules which, as David mentions earlier in the thread, the horse in question was. "
Didn’t see the race myself, so probably should keep me mouth shut, fat chance!!!
, but isn’t that statement what this debate is about?Was the horse ridden out as per the rules, which as we all now, are open to interpretation and the connections of the horse quite often affects that interpretation.
If the horse had been trained by Mr. Curley or Mr. Flood there would probably been a quite different interpretation.
If there was no doubt that Heffernan gave the horse every assistance to win the race there can,by definition, be no arguement with the stewards not taking any action.
Colin
Gareth …simply cant agree
I would avoid 2 year old maidens (esp with some stables involved) for that reason…yes
But you have missed the point about the publics perception of what is happening during the event
If a team in the carling cup was stuffed full of reserves, do you believe they would still not be doing their best to win, despite the limitations?
Whatever went before, hefferman was in a position to get a result. His action was the same as a golfer not bothering to aim his putt or a forward blasting it high and wide because he couldnt care less whether he scored or not.
that is what the public sees..and its crap
Clive….I assume you feel the same way about the Stoute two year olds first time out?Its just I don’t hear many complain about Stoute doing the very same thing.
as someone mentioned, anyone who bets on 2 year old maidens or first time outs needs psychiatric treatment IMO
Aidan
Classic Winner
Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 1507Posted: 15 Oct 2007 13:09 Post subject:
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While I agree about the MCL incident needing more done about it…this is just crap.
I backed Psalm yesterdayAgreed Hawk wing
In fact i think they are often worth looking at when you are at the course and get a feel for how fit they appear (im no expert) and can take into account the way the trainers target such animals
Heffernans ride should have been pulled under the non triers rule. plain and simple. Im pretty sure stewards do not and would not have excepted his deliberatly tender riding (he was never going to get pulled). This is not an exceptable excuse. This is textbook NON TRYING and it stinks to high heaven
The only way around this is to make ALL 2yo races a hands and heels with all punters knowing wear they stood. The average punter doesnt give a hoot about nuturing horses, and why should he/she?Why would Ballydoyle give a hoot about the average punter? At the end of the day they will always protect their interests which is their prerogative. If their jockeys are instructed to give their 2 yr olds an education thats what will happen. Please be aware that I am not defending Ballydoyle here at all. Anyone who bets on a two year old maiden needs their head examined, its a minefield.
JohnJ.
Punters will always back in 2yr old maidens as there is betting on the race, so why should they not get a run for their money ??. Your type of attitude JJ is the same as all those trainers owners & jockeys, screw the punter. Its a pure case of biting the hand that feeds but the punter is toothless to bite back.
My attitude is realistic Marz, I have never said that these trainers are right, my point is that trainers will use these maidens as education more so than not. So unless the Jockey club review their non trier rules or punters boycott these races completely it looks like the punters will always get stung.
JohnJ.
Seeing as you didnt answer my question Clive I will ask it again!
I assume you feel the same way about the Stoute two year olds first time out?Its just I don’t hear many complain about Stoute doing the very same thing.
Seeing as you didnt answer my question Clive I will ask it again!
I assume you feel the same way about the Stoute two year olds first time out?Its just I don’t hear many complain about Stoute doing the very same thing.
Show me a Stoute 2 year old that got beat a neck by it’s stablemate, when ‘arguably’ given an easier ride – and then I will answer the question on Clive’s behalf
Mike
That pretty well answers it ..cheers Mikky
Why is it some are finding it difficult to understand that whatever the pre event chances of a horse, football team, golfer etc…..a complete disregard for taking advantage of a winning position is not exactly what anyone would want to see….and is bloody awful for the image of the sport
and no…i dont directly recall a Stoute two year old ridden in precisely the same way
So you cannot recall a Stoute two year old getting a gentle introduction only to improve significantly off it the next time out or as a 3 year old?
Its either right or wrong…every two year old should be there to win a race at all costs or not. Look at Newmarket and Doncaster this weekend and next weekend and you’ll see numerous cases of two year olds been given a race without a) being fully wound up or near it or b) asked for maximum effort.
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…every two year old should be there to win a race at all costs or not.
Face. Volte.
Arrange in the right order.
The only way around this is to make ALL 2yo races a hands and heels with all punters knowing wear they stood. The average punter doesnt give a hoot about nuturing horses, and why should he/she?
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