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I would be in favour of adding 3 lbs to his rating.
I do wonder whether Treasure beach and Memphis Blue are slightly flattered in their proximity to the winner and third. As the better fancied horses were all held up from mid-div backwards.Had Pour Moi and Carlton House met in the Irish Derby (they won’t), I’d probably back Carlton House. As the hype about Barzalona / Pour Moi doing so well to come from last to first has in my opinion been exaggerated. Where as the problems Carlton House encountered have been seen as sour grapes.
Pour Moi 127+
Treasure Beach 124?
Carlton House 123p
Memphis tennessee 121?
Native Khan 120
Recital 116
Vadamar 115Value Is EverythingNot a good Derby in my opinion. Maybe subsequent races will prove me wrong but at this stage its hard to get excited about any of that lot.
Henry made the wrong decision Frankel would’ve mullered this lot.
One thing that should be abundantly clear by now is that neither Native Khan or Dubawi Gold was "flattered" by their running behind Frankel in the Guineas, and those that held that view may like to cogitate that Frankel was actually the overrated one, by dint of having the race won before the above 2 even featured. Wouldn’t stay 12f on a bus, anyway.
Imo, Treasure Beach clearly improved for the stiffer test (looks a moral for the Leger) while Carlton House would probably be better over 10f – not a vintage Derby, though.Not sure I can follow your reasoning here Reet. I agree that clearly NK and DG were not flattered by their Guineas running but how does that make Frankel overrated? If anything it lends more weight to the already sound claims that he is exceptional.
And as for having the race won before the 2 of them featured – there was a pretty good reason for that…..they couldnt live with him!
Like with Treasure Beach last year in the Royal Lodge, Frankel is so good he makes others look like selling platers.
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Does anyone know what they’ve given Fox Hunt? I thought he’s ran 18lbs off The Derby winner so should be around the 106 mark?
Anyone else got their ratings for the Derby?
Maybe Frankel should slow down a bit, and give the others a chance to show their worth – then we can see how good he really is. Come on Reet…
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Actually ‘Himself’ i cant agree on the middle distance argument either.Tulloch back in the 50’s would have probably been the best horse in the world,before him you have Bernborough,Japan Cup winner Better Loosen Up,the Great Kingston Town,Octagonal,Might And Power,Northerly,Lohnro,Saintly and too many to think of,and Better Loosen Up was the only horse to race internationally out of this lot,again not a bad record for 1 attempt!
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Personally i think Pour Moi is top draw,and is a perfect Arc horse,though still a little green in the Derby.I think the distance will suit him perfectly,if he has matured enough around Arc time he will be right in the finish.I think SYT wont have any problems with the distance,last year he was trained to win the Cox Plate,the MC was a bit of an afterthought.This year AOB will be specifically setting him for the Arc,i think the first time SYT is up against a top horse you will see a great horse in SYT.
Actually ‘Himself’ i cant agree on the middle distance argument either.Tulloch back in the 50’s would have probably been the best horse in the world,before him you have Bernborough,Japan Cup winner Better Loosen Up,the Great Kingston Town,Octagonal,Might And Power,Northerly,Lohnro,Saintly and too many to think of,and Better Loosen Up was the only horse to race internationally out of this lot,again not a bad record for 1 attempt!
I know all about those horses, but for editing purposes, I omitted to mention the likes of Tulloch and Kingstown Town. The former, although a high class animal during the 50s – in the southern hemisphere – has a bit to find with the world famous European superstar of the same decade; namely, the 16 times undefeated Ribot.
There is of course another antipodean galloper who is worthy of an honourable mention. A Kiwi trained horse by the name of Balmerino, who incredibly raced over 30 times in 1977. He finished 2nd to Alleged in the 77 Arc, and before that raced finished runner-up both in the Coronation Cup at Epsom and the Eclipse Stakes at Sandown. Now, he was as tough as Jonah Lomu.
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I dont think Tulloch would have disgraced himself,and yes i remember when Choiser won the Kings Stand the announcer said that the ‘Australian’ horse Balmerino was the only Aussie horse that they could remember racing in England,the Kiwi’s would have loved that!
Replying to someone if Pour Moi had been defeated through the jockeys foolishness John Magnier would still have won the Derby. What an enviable position to be watchiung two of your horses fight out the finish of the Derby.The owners were divided in their interest in the finish.Smith did not see Pour Moi because he was shouting home the second horse!
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Not sure I can follow your reasoning here Reet. I agree that clearly NK and DG were not flattered by their Guineas running but how does that make Frankel overrated? If anything it lends more weight to the already sound claims that he is exceptional.
And as for having the race won before the 2 of them featured – there was a pretty good reason for that…..they couldnt live with him!
Like with Treasure Beach last year in the Royal Lodge, Frankel is so good he makes others look like selling platers.
Jonibake
Don’t doubt for a second that Frankel is an exceptional horse, though I do query if he’s as exceptional as many rate him.
He had his own way in the Guineas (with the above 2 spotting him around 20l mid-race) and (SJP apart, which already looks a walk-over) that’s unlikely to happen against the better older milers.
As both his form and future entries show, Treasure Beach is a thorough stayer who was beaten in a 1m nursery at 2yo, so unsurprising he didn’t have he speed of Frankel.The rating seems to disregard the more subjective aspects of the race and granted I understand Timeform use a variety of tools to compile their figure, it seems the overriding factor is always distance between finishers, a method as old as the hills.
Why are sectional adjustments made to some performances and not to others?
So Treasure Beach very nearly broke the Aidan O’Brien Saturday ‘hoodoo’ at Epsom but not quite!
Would we have seen a different result had Carlton House not had the injury so close to the event and then also not lost a shoe in the final half furlong? Who knows, nobody can say BUT what a peach of a ride (even taking into account the premature celebration) from young Barzalona
Superb jugdement from one so young and how good to see the joy.
Excellent day and the atmosphere on the Downs and train home was pure electric.
I backed Carlton House and fully accept that he was beaten fairly and squarely. Shoe loss or no shoe loss; bumped wide or nor not, Carlton House was beaten by two better horses on the day.
If you study the over head camera footage of the race, you will see not only the extraordinary amount of ground Pour Moi had to make up from Tattenham corner, but the fact that he too was also carried wide. His turn of foot and will to win attitude from that far back was the mark of a high class colt.
Re: Frankel
People are deluding themselves if they think that the manner of his Guineas victory flattered him in any way. Most average horses who have dared to set off at that pace over the Rowley Mile would have finished closer to last, rather than six lengths clear at the finish. He would have destroyed them whatever the pace.
It goes without saying that I think he will waltz home untroubled next week at Royal Ascot. The rest might as well stay at home.Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
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Pour Moi may have looked like a world-beater in the Derby, but I think Barzalona got lucky. He gave the horse a lot to do and in a good Derby, he’d have finished fourth and would have been slated by the pundits. You can only come from last to first at Epsom if the other nags aren’t up to much and this was a very poor Derby. Treasure Beach is nothing special (he was running in handicaps last season) and the other horses finished in a bit of a heap. In my opinion, the best horse in the race was probably Recital, but he’ll never win anything if he continues to run with his head to one side.
Of the last 10 or so Derby winners, Pour Moi is probably better than Kris Kin, North Light and Sir Percy, and as good as Authorized and Workforce, but he is miles behind the likes of the mighty Sea The Stars, New Approach, Galileo, High Chaparral, Motivator and Sinndar.
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Re: Frankel
People are deluding themselves if they think that the manner of his Guineas victory flattered him in any way. Most average horses who have dared to set off at that pace over the Rowley Mile would have finished closer to last, rather than six lengths clear at the finish. He would have destroyed them whatever the pace.
It goes without saying that I think he will waltz home untroubled next week at Royal Ascot. The rest might as well stay at home.We’ll see who’s deluded when he meets proper horses, Himself; though promoting him for an non-event like this year’s SJP requires the same foresight as predicting it will be dark before morning.
We’ll see who’s deluded when he meets proper horses, Himself; though promoting him for an non-event like this year’s SJP requires the same foresight as predicting it will be dark before morning.
Now, let’s just clear this one up, Reet Hard. Are you therefore suggesting that Frankel is not a "proper horse."
If so, then far from me to call your good self deluded – but if that indeed is what you are suggesting, then by golly sir, you are by association, deluded !
As for the charge of promoting Frankel for a non-event ( I’d hardly call the SJP a non-event ), I’d like to differ, if I may. On the contrary, I am merely stating the "bleedin’ obvious ", as they say dahn souf
– and if the race itself turns out to be a non-event, it will be simply due to Frankel’s superiority over all other contenders in the 3 year old miler division of 2011.Once his lordship has dispatched of his Royal Ascot adversaries ( and he will ), I say, bring on the Goldi and Canford Cliffs !
I’ll be lumping on HC’s charge. What about you ?
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