- This topic has 17 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 2 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
This is the best I could do, as records seemed incomplete. If anyone knows any more Group 1 race winners, please let me know and I’ll edit it!
Dewhurst Stakes (1983)
Rainbow Quest- Coronation Cup (1985), Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe (1985)
Siberian Express- Prix Morny (1983), French 2000 Guineas (1984)2000 Guineas (1984)
Chief Singer- St James Palace Stakes (1984), July Cup (1984), Sussex Stakes (1984)
Lear Fan- Prix Jacques le Marois (1984)
Rainbow Quest- Coronation Cup (1985), Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe (1985)
Creag-an-Sgor- Middle Park Stakes (1983)Irish Derby (1984)
Rainbow Quest- Coronation Cup (1985), Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe (1985)
Dahar- Prix Lupin (1984)Along with the 1971 renewal of the same race?
No along with the 1986 renewal Corm!
El Gran Senor should have won the 84 Derby,not P,Edderys finest moment!Along with the 1971 renewal of the same race?
No along with the 1986 renewal Corm!
El Gran Senor should have won the 84 Derby,not P,Edderys finest moment!Is it not strange that the late great Greville Starkey is continually criticised for his ride on Dancing Brave and no-one ever seems to go on about what a carp ride Pat gave EGS. Oh what irony that Pat jocked off Greville. Strange game sometimes.
Along with the 1971 renewal of the same race?
A renewal is something that happens again Corm… so if you were initially talking about the 1984 2000 Guineas, then the 1971 version can’t be a renewal
Of course, it can be a renewal of the 1970 2000 Guineas
Only messing… I’ve probably got this completely wrong.
In the top 5 Flat races of all time, Corm, without a doubt.
It’s not without a doubt Rory, it’s only ‘without a doubt’ in your opinion
The 2,000 Guineas winner of 1971 would have laughed his head off at all subsequent winners of the race and would probably have smirked (albiet respectfully ) at El Gran Senor and Dancing Brave as he passed by them too.
I recall on the eve of the 1984 Guineas, Channel 4 Racing ( I think Brough Scott ) intervewied the late Alex Bird about his views on the race. It was music to my ears ( I had my biggest bet ever ante-post on EGS ) to hear him say that he reckoned El Gran Senor was a good thing and had put his money where his mouth was.He just wouldn’t hear of defeat for the O’Brien colt and backed it accordingly.
The 1984 renewall was Possibly the best in terms of overall quality but 1971 had arguably two of the best European trained horses ever in the line-up: such was their quality, that Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef (along with My Swallow ) scared away all but three opponents.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
The 2,000 Guineas winner of 1971 would have laughed his head off at all subsequent winners of the race and would probably have smirked (albiet respectfully ) at El Gran Senor and Dancing Brave as he passed by them too.
Back in 1986, I once read about comparisons being made with Brigadier Gerard and Dancing Brave. It was mentioned that it took BG three strides to hit top gear and DB 45 yards. If you work out how many strides a horse can fit into 45 yards, then there wouldn’t be much between those two titans. I pretty much suspect that Dancing Brave would’ve given Brigadier Gerard a helluva scare if such a clash ever happened
The Derby won by Secreto had consequences both for for Vincent and for David facing the long term.Jacqueline O’Brien had to be sorry for one and delighted for the other.The last great horse trained by Vincent would have won if only the family talked to each other. However Vincent was not known for including his family in his business and so had no idea how good Secreto was.But I suppose racing people are notoriously closed mouthed.David was the youngest trainer to train an English, an Irish, and a French derby winner. He threw the whole thing in shortly after Secreto and nobody knows to this day why.
I recall on the eve of the 1984 Guineas, Channel 4 Racing ( I think Brough Scott ) intervewied the late Alex Bird about his views on the race. It was music to my ears ( I had my biggest bet ever ante-post on EGS ) to hear him say that he reckoned El Gran Senor was a good thing and had put his money where his mouth was.He just wouldn’t hear of defeat for the O’Brien colt and backed it accordingly.
Alex Bird had his biggest ever bet on
Dancing Brave
for the 86 Derby,he and Greville had said The Brave was a bigger certainty for the Derby than he was for the 2000gns!Having backed The Brave at double figure prices for the Derby it was music to my ears too Himself!The music from a bloody horror film,it still haunts me today!
Alex Bird had his biggest ever bet on
Dancing Brave
for the 86 Derby,he and Greville had said The Brave was a bigger certainty for the Derby than he was for the 2000gns!Having backed The Brave at double figure prices for the Derby it was music to my ears too Himself!The music from a bloody horror film,it still haunts me today!
I think the whole of Britain ( and Ireland ) was on Dancing Brave for The Derby; myself included. Even though Greville Starkey reckoned he would be very hard to beat, there was a strong feeling prior to race (among press and punters ) that DB might not stay – hence the exaggerrated waiting tactics employed on the day.
There was this niggling doubt (among journalists and punters ) that he might be a non stayer. I recall the same doubts raised over El Gran Senor’s ability to stay the Derby distance, just as there had been with Mill Reef and Nijinsky ( the only time he started odds against ) before them. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but, if Greville had the chance all over again, he would have been much less cautious and would most definitely have won.
He made up for it in The Eclipse though.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
He made up for it in The Eclipse though.
Greville redeemed himself in the Eclipse but at 4/9 he wasn"t a betting proposition,you couldn"t get an ante-Post bet on the race back then! When The Brave won the King George he was only 6/4,Sharasthani his Derby conqueror was the 11/10 fav!I was a Bookies runner back then and was told to put a £100 on Sharasthani at the price!The money stayed in my pocket as i knew Dancing Brave would win the King George and if Betfair was around back then i would have laid Sharasthani no question,i would probably have got 2/1 about the greatest horse ever too!
At a guess I’d asy more Derbies have been won on pre-race doubtful stayers by riding them as if they stayed rather than trying to conserve their stamina. I think R.Hughes said the other week in an interview (and it’s been said by many before) that you have to ride them (horses in general rather than specifically the Derby) as if they stay.
I think both Eddery and Starkey fell into the trap.There were similar doubts (among journos and punters) about Sea The Stars (seems odd now in hindsight) but Kinane rode him like he was a two miler and got the reward. Rip Van Winkle, on the other hand, was ridden to conserve stamina and, consequently, was too far away when it mattered. The Rip ran the straight faster than Sea The Stars (he was closer to STS at the finsh than he was when they entered the straight). You might argue he stayed better than the winner.
You might argue he stayed better than the winner.
I wouldn"t argue that i"m afraid Corm!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.