June 5, 2002 at 13:58 #4199AnonymousInactive
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On the evidence of yesterday’s performance Shami doesn’t look like a chip off the old block!!
Like to hear of other examples of dream pedigrees on paper coming to nothing special – Savoire Vivre (Sadlers Wells/Oh So Sharp) comes to mind…. who elseJune 5, 2002 at 14:14 #99558
Hi Mujtahid was by Mujtahid out of High Tern, meaning he’s a half brother to High Rise yet he could only win sellers if that.
Salcho is also by Sadler’s Wells out of Oh So Sharp and was nowhere near as good as Savoire Vivre.
Two expensive, well-bred buys of the Maktoum lot, Classic Music and Snaafi Dancer, were very well bred and ran like dogs. Not sure if it was one of those two or another, might have been called Seattle Dancer actually, or something, who was related to Seattle Slew and was also useless….lots come to mind I just can’t recall the exact details.
Interesting though for someone like me who follows pedigrees quite a lot.June 5, 2002 at 14:23 #99560SalMember
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The fourth placed in that race yesterday will probably come under this category too – Grain of Gold by Mr P ex Pure Grain.
Bosra, I think you’re being a bit harsh on poor old Savoire Vivre – he showed alot of promise on his first two starts before breaking down. He’s now started as a stallion at Armidale Stud in Australia.
:wave:June 5, 2002 at 14:25 #99562johnny boyMember
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If anyone needs any proof of how imprecise a science the breeding of thoroughbreds is, just look through the breeding of the runners at any ordinary jumps meeting. You’ll see plenty of supposed blue bloods lumbering around places like Hexham and Plumpton.June 5, 2002 at 14:28 #99565
Sinndar’s half brother was a selling hurdler, still is I think. Cant for the life of me remember his name though…S…something…June 5, 2002 at 14:56 #99566AnonymousInactive
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Sal – didn’t mean to be rude about Savoire Vivre saw him at Newbury and was amazed at his size, but seem to remember he kept breaking down and getting injured, so maybe didn’t get the chance to show what he could do. Grain of Gold seems even less promising than Shami.
Zoz, knew about Snaaffi Dancer he’s infamous, but never heard of SalchowJune 5, 2002 at 14:58 #99568
Maybe I’ve got it wrong about Salcho, I know the name is something like that. He’s still running today, or was last season at least.June 5, 2002 at 15:19 #99570Steve MMember
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The breed is afflicted with a host of inherent flaws and weaknesses, any one of which can cause an individual to underperform.
Breeding is also not simply thinking of the best male and female performers on the track and putting them together. You need to consider such things as whether certain lines are better suited to lines free of Northern Dancer blood for example, or whether they will benefit from further concentrated inbreeding to such lines.
The fact that a scattergun approach is used for many stallions and that wrong mating decisions are made is more connected with disappointments than anything else.
A simple example to illustrate: the Sadler’s Wells/Habitat cross has led to a very high level of consistency and performance. Sadler’s Wells crossed with the progeny of other damsires may not produce offspring nearly as good or nearly as consistent.
While I am not suggesting for a moment that Sadler’s Wells should only be crossed with the progeny of Habitat (far from it) it boils down to a better quality of decision being made by breeders as to how consistent the results will be.June 5, 2002 at 15:37 #99572MeshaheerMember
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Steve M has a very valid point – certain bloodlines work wonders together wheras others (no matter how good the horses are) just don’t.
I wouldn’t write Shami off yet. He did particularly well considering he set off at 100mph and Grain Of Gold didn’t last out as well as him.
Savoire Vivre would have been a very decent 1m4f-6f horse had he not broken down, such a shame he did really.
Zoz I know who you’re on about – he won a Chepstow Hurdle at the backend of 2000 I think (I could be wrong).
I have seen another of High-Rise’s siblings do badly as well (although High Rise wasn’t a world beater himself!).<br>Dubai Millennium’s siblings haven’t been as good either, although his first full brother is a yearling now and he now has a full sister. Even so, no guarantees they will be as good.
A lot of it can be luck as well. Sakhee’s breeding hardly sets the world alight (haven’t been hearing much of Bahri) but he’s surpassed his sire and dam.
Zoz- it was Snaafi Dancer. All that happenned before my time I think though!June 5, 2002 at 15:55 #99574
That’s the hurdler alright Mesh. I’m useless at names today for some reason…maybe its because its raining and miserable and I’m trying to write "the novel" and my brain is in a thousand places at once! I know who I mean, anyway :laugh:June 5, 2002 at 17:44 #99577SalMember
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Know the feeling Zoz, I couldn’t remember the name of the 1000 Guineas winner the other day – onset of early senility I think!
Sacho is the OSS foal. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Sirinndi is the Sinndar half brother – running this season in point-to-points….
Steve M – I agree. My pet hate is the over-use of the new season sires – regardless of the dam’s breeding – done with both eyes squarely on the yearling sales. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Ditto with fashionable sires – many decent racemares are automatically sent to the most expensive and fashionable mates (oh she’s good enough to visit Sadler’s Wells) without any due consideration for the bloodlines involved. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â This is particularly ironic with broodmares who have produced a couple of exceptional foals with "lesser" sires, are promptly sent to SW/Danehill/Danzig/flavour-of-the-month and then never produce another winner. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Evidence of the learning plateau….
:angry:June 5, 2002 at 18:11 #99579
Sal and Steve M – weird this cropped up about over-using first season sires because I mentioned it briefly in an article on gg.com today just before this thread was started. I was talking about Golan, saying that if a horse of Spectrum’s calibre has about 200 offspring trotting about, you would expect at least one to be a bit of good.
I know a lot of experts are very worried about this over-booking of stallions and although I’m not an expert, I’m still worried. They think there’s dross racing at the moment, give it five years and you won’t believe you thought this was bad.June 5, 2002 at 18:34 #99581MeshaheerMember
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Zoz – have read your article and i agree with the commercial breeding point you make. There are too many rubbishy horses being bred these days, i.e the one by River Falls I have at my riding stables. There is worse breeding around but the best breeding can produce bad horses too. Basically, there are always going to be more bad than good horses – if something isn’t done soon.
Godolphin actually keep quite a few older horses in training compared to Ballydoyle – Ballydoyle would have taken Best Of The Bests to Coolmore at the end of 2000 without a Group One win to his name.<br>June 5, 2002 at 20:17 #99584VenusianParticipant
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The point about the over-use of unproven stallions is an important one. Although the thoroughbred is less inbred now than 100 or 200 years ago, there is a distinct danger that the vast books of mares covered by fashionable or well-marketed stallions (especially shuttlers) will in the near future reduce the gene pool. There’s nothing wrong with inbreeding in itself, but it needs to be done with care, and with specific objectives in mind, and not just because there’s not enough choice for mare owners.
It makes even less sense when this happens with unproven stallions. Probably 80 or 90% of stallions ‘fail’ at stud, in terms of transmitting excellence to their offspring, so the crime of over-use is compounded.
Just as many outstanding broodmares were not great racemares, there have been many extremely successful stallions who although well-bred and good-looking, who were not of the very highest class on the track. It is these stallions who are now not going to get a chance to show what they can do, including supplying more variability into the gene pool. No one is suggesting that bad racehorses should get as good chances at stud as champion ones, but you do need that variability if the breed is not to regress.
It’s a pity that many breeders, bloodstock agents and trainers cannot work out that a stallion that gets 6 black type performers from 30 foals a year is a better bet than one that gets 10 from 100.June 5, 2002 at 20:30 #99587
Mesh – I agree with Godolphin’s policy of keeping horses in training. I have maintained for a long time that actions like that are the ones that will keep a young audience in racing. Let’s face it; whilst aiming for a young audience racing authorities have to think that their main audience will bve pony-mad teenagers, and they’re in it for the horses at first – that’s how I got hooked and many people I know. How are people meant to follow flat racers like Galileo who are brilliant but gone in two years? My first "favourite" was Suny Bay, and I got into the sport towards the end of his career – I still got to follow him for four years.
As long as Godolphin keep older horses going, I will support them over Ballydoyle, although I think Tabor et al are starting to realise that older horse races are dominated by Godolphin and they can compete.
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