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Tricky Trickster would have won today even if Denman had stood up! Explain that,if Denman was fit! Quite simply he wasn"t! Poor show,very poor show! What if Denman managed to finish 3rd,which he probably would have done,if he had stood up! Alarm Bells is the understatement of the year! Sick horse,tests,doubts Oh dear something is amiss somewhere?
I not a fan of McCoy and while i like to stick the boot in to the Pro McCoy brigade it could have been worse.
It has to be said that Denman was lucky to come out unscathed….2 bone crunching mistakes could well have put him on the easy list. Did McCoy ask him for a big Jump at the 3rd last or did the Horse just go for it?…because if McCoy asked him that would have been very reckless indeed…..i can say for certain that most jockeys would have just let him pop the next fence after such a mistake.
That the discussion point for me….did McCoy ask him at after the mistake. If He did he deserves the criticism he gets..
Can anyone remember the mistakes Iris’s Gift used to make when Mccoy rode him, When Gereaty rode him he jumped well
Something to do with BG riding Iris’s over hurdles and AP over fences. He was so big, he could kick hurdles out of the way.
Value Is EverythingGinge, perhaps if you made your points a little more succinct people might take more note. Your first line was controversial so I started reading but got bored.
You said almost the same thing in your opener Aragorn, if a little more tactful. Think you are splitting hairs.
I do find most people blaming the jockey / trainer or owner "rubbish".
The vast majority of time I find this forum’s members very knowledgeable (more than any other forum). Even if I don’t agree with some posts, they are usually well argued. Which is why I am so surprised at this thread.
For people to ignore the Aintree fall (under Thomas) which was very similar and think Denman is somehow not a bold jumping front runner is ….
Others want to blame PN for not having him fully fit. Ignoring the fact many horses run / many trainers run their horses less than 100% for Cheltenham preps. Does not mean they can’t jump.Value Is EverythingMakes me laugh how people jump on the band waggon about Mccoy, thats WHY he is champion jockey! He rides more favourites than anyone else, he was very good in the early days, when, by coincidence i suspect you lot will say, he rode for the incredibly prolific trainer martin pipe, ever since then he rides more odds on shots than anyone. It made me laugh a few years ago that it took him almost 10 years to ride his biggest priced winner, a 33-1 shot!!!!! says it all!
As for Iris’s Gift, BG rode him in his first race over fences against non novices, and he jumped better than he ever did for mccoy.
The difference between mccoy on denman and ruby on master minded is ruby sat tight!!! and took the blame, non of that from mr mccoy!
HE WILL NOT WIN A GOLD CUP WITH MCCOY ON HIS BACKJim McGrath obviously felt that McCoy was in some way culpable for Denman’s demise but, instead of coming right out and saying it, he did what only he can: that is, by deflecting his concerns into the path of John Francome, by way of question.
I paraphrase: "Do you think the jockey was in any way to blame there."
Oh, he’s a canny/sly one is that old Timeform guru.
Francome, of course, as is his wont on matters of criticising members of his ex-profession, said no.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
I can’t believe AP was like "i didn’t think he was winning by too much on the run in so i asked him to quicken"
WTF was that comment about…if Paul Nicholls had told AP what he told the press that he wasn’t 100% surely then he would have just asked Denman to win with the least amount of pressure/ Instead he was 3-5l up and then wanted to press on?….why?. Denman Grinds he opposition down and the further he goes the better he goes as he fortay is Jumping and Stamina.
I don’t know….today was very strange….Like it was his Prep Run for goodness sake and he has been absoutely gutted..TWICE. I remember watching and saying what is he doing…
It was a NIGHTMARE for Denman Ante Post Backers
Makes me laugh how people jump on the band waggon about Mccoy, thats WHY he is champion jockey! He rides more favourites than anyone else, he was very good in the early days, when, by coincidence i suspect you lot will say, he rode for the incredibly prolific trainer martin pipe, ever since then he rides more odds on shots than anyone. It made me laugh a few years ago that it took him almost 10 years to ride his biggest priced winner, a 33-1 shot!!!!! says it all!
As for Iris’s Gift, BG rode him in his first race over fences against non novices, and he jumped better than he ever did for mccoy.
The difference between mccoy on denman and ruby on master minded is ruby sat tight!!! and took the blame, non of that from mr mccoy!
HE WILL NOT WIN A GOLD CUP WITH MCCOY ON HIS BACKNo, the difference is Master Minded kept straight, Denman did not.
Does anyone remember Denman jumping the water jump in a Hennessey? It was a massive jump. He’s always a bold jumping front-runner, and for people to say he isn’t is rediculous. What would people have said if Denman came down at that water jump? To let Denman pop his jumps would be totally alien and more likely to get him on the floor.
Denman probably won’t win the Gold Cup under any jockey. Kauto Star is capable of better form.
Value Is EverythingMost of the Mccoy fans seem to be playing the horse was tired line, funny the horse was hardly blowing after the race and jumped the last 2 fences fine and not like a tired horse at all. plus a tired horse would have hit the deck not found a leg and galloped on. IMO the best thing they could do is get another jockey on and give him a spin over hurdles somewhere to get his jumping confidence back in the next couple of weeks and then have 3 weeks until the festival. wouldnt suprise me if we saw him entered up in a 3 mile hurdle soon. Is the Rendlesham coming up?!
Ruby also rides 3 holes longer than Mccoy but i guess that wont mean anything to you ginger!
Yeah denman normally wings his fences i will agree, so why hassle the horse from 5 out when 5l up?
Surely you agree they just dont suit each other thats all people are sayingNo I don’t agree. With that Water Jump, it was a full circuit from the finish. There was no reason for Thomas to ask Denman for a jump like that. But I very much doubt if Thomas did ask Denman that question, the horse made up his own mind. Like (I believe) Denman made his own mind up today.
These things happen, it’s nobody’s fault
. This is my point.
AP is quite capable of just allowing horses to jump economically when he needs to.
AP is the best jockey for bold jumping front runners.
Denman IS a bold jumping front runner, therefore they are well suited. AP does not "hastle"; Denman was not going especially well at the time. Had he sat still, he’d probably come out of the jump behind the just as bold jumping Niche Market (if not then upsides). He was NOT 5 lengths up.Value Is EverythingI not a fan of McCoy and while i like to stick the boot in to the Pro McCoy brigade it could have been worse.
It has to be said that Denman was lucky to come out unscathed….2 bone crunching mistakes could well have put him on the easy list. Did McCoy ask him for a big Jump at the 3rd last or did the Horse just go for it?…because if McCoy asked him that would have been very reckless indeed…..i can say for certain that most jockeys would have just let him pop the next fence after such a mistake.
That the discussion point for me….did McCoy ask him at after the mistake. If He did he deserves the criticism he gets..
McCoy gets at the horse at the start of the straight. At that moment, Denman’s race falls apart.
Had he sat still, Denman would havejumped
to the line. Niche Market was tiring too, which is why Ruby nicked the race on the line. Denman would have won a workmanlike victory of 5L or so, and Niche Market would have chased Denman to the line.
I see it as an error of judgement on McCoy’s part to have niggled at a horse that is capable of winning it’s own race by attrition.Makes me laugh how people jump on the band waggon about Mccoy, thats WHY he is champion jockey! He rides more favourites than anyone else, he was very good in the early days, when, by coincidence i suspect you lot will say, he rode for the incredibly prolific trainer martin pipe, ever since then he rides more odds on shots than anyone. It made me laugh a few years ago that it took him almost 10 years to ride his biggest priced winner, a 33-1 shot!!!!! says it all!
As for Iris’s Gift, BG rode him in his first race over fences against non novices, and he jumped better than he ever did for mccoy.
The difference between mccoy on denman and ruby on master minded is ruby sat tight!!! and took the blame, non of that from mr mccoy!HE WILL NOT WIN A GOLD CUP WITH MCCOY ON HIS BACK
Correct!! The people saying this now will be proved correct in March like they have already been proved correct by their concern over McCoy getting the ride in the first place.
Totally agree about Barry Geraghty top class jockey second only to Ruby IMO.
Slating jockeys appears to be a pastime for some. In my view the selection of McCoy as the new rider was proved entirely correct yesterday.
Connections knew something was wrong weeks or possibly even months ago when they first intimated that a change of rider was imminent.
A lot of the "talk" was of Denman becoming a bit lazier at home and needing more work.
It was also noted he was becoming recalcitrant at the start of his races.
Even after the Hennessy I read somewhere that Walsh had commented that "blinkers" were now needed.When that picture is painted who can blame connections for Choosing McCoy. I noted at the time it was a bad omen for Denmans Chances at Cheltenham, not because of him as such, but because they thought the horse now "needed" someone like him.
Yesterdays performance only served to confirm that they were right to be concerned. I don’t think anyone realized the true extent of the ten year olds problems.
That’s the shock of it all.
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IMO Denman wouldn’t win the Gold Cup if Evan Almighty rode him but to say he won’t win it because of AP is boredering on insanity. I really don’t mean to offend but it really is.
Not quite as bad as the idiot who suggested McCoy can’t handle big race pressure. He rides for the biggest owner in the country and there was a fortune resting on his shoulders in the Tote Trophy and he’s riddden another brillaint race.
Denman went from 4 lengths up to level between fences and the horse was stopping/tiring and fell like he did with Sam at Aintree.
If you guys went racing and said what you are saying on here to someone like Ruby or PN you’d be laughed off the racecourse.
IMO Denman wouldn’t win the Gold Cup if Evan Almighty rode him but to say he won’t win it because of AP is boredering on insanity. I really don’t mean to offend but it really is.
Not quite as bad as the idiot who suggested McCoy can’t handle big race pressure. He rides for the biggest owner in the country and there was a fortune resting on his shoulders in the Tote Trophy and he’s riddden another brillaint race.
Denman went from 4 lengths up to level between fences and the horse was stopping/tiring and fell like he did with Sam at Aintree.
If you guys went racing and said what you are saying on here to someone like Ruby or PN you’d be laughed off the racecourse.
But they can’t take a detched view can they Fist as they are emotionally and directly involved. At the end of the day the proof of the pudding is in the eating and McCoys big race record over the years for a fourteen times champion jockey is poor to say the least.
Before yesterday the worst anyone could see Denman faring in the Gold Cup was second now with McCoy on board I think second place is well and truely up for grabs.
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