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Rip Van Winkle didn’t see out the trip in the Eclipse, and Sea The Stars was overrated (for that particular race) as a consequence. RVW was kept to a mile for the rest of the season, only stepping up in trip at a sharp Santa Anita for his swansong.
The following season, Aidan geared him toward a 10f win (as is his wont with potentially lucrative stallions), winning a steadily run International, though insisting the horse was basically a miler.Just my opinion, but Sea The Stars was a very good horse, (probably best at 12f, but fortunate to meet a strong pace in all his 3yo races over shorter) though never easily beat a field with the class of Sea Bird’s Arc or Nijinsky’s King George, and therefore, not a great one.
Unlike today’s jockeys Kinane saved STS in order to keep winning from the Guineas to the Ark with never a loss.Brilliant jockey, brilliant horse.Think how much Frankel would still have in the tank if Mick had been riding him.
Why not race on? I mean, his owners aren’t really strappcash are they?
Unfortunately breeding rules the horse racing world, no where more so than in Europe.
Wouldn’t it be interesting to see
if he could have been an all time great
? And before you answer he was, get real, he had a handful of starts as a 3yo. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not bagging him, he was a great champion… for one season. Nothing like seeing one come back for more season after season after season..
He was an all-time great.
Think what you meant to ask was could he come back and repeat the illustriousness of his three year old campaign.
Answer – probably.
Cannot help thinking how STS won the Guineas so easily before going on to the Derby and then the Ark. He was a high class miler as well as a Derby winner.
Andyod
This notion – that if a horse is top class, he’s top class at all trips – is plainly wrong, as it is with human athletes.
Sea the Stars won the Guineas as an immature 3yo racing against other emergent horses, beating a Delegator that barely stayed 1m (even when mature) a nonentity in Gan Amhras, and a RVW that was never put into the race (at that time, connections had their eye on the Derby).
STS clearly developed on different lines to Delegator and RVW, becoming much more a middle distance horse, and there’s little doubt (imo) he would have got murdered in the latter’s Sussex.
Workforce (like Conduit before him) took his chance in the Eclipse but didn’t have the speed to win it. As with his stablemate, he’ll probably go on to better things over further, and people will no doubt use that form to elevate SYT, but the fact remains – it was one horse’s optimum trip, but not the other’s – and that does make a difference.I agree with your first statement.
BUT……..Sea The Stars was the exception……..what made him so special.
He really could win at any distance from 1m to 1m4f. Reason he didn’t run at a mile again was because there were other more precious races to target. James Palace or Epsom Derby? Irish Champion or Sussex? Arc or QEII? Had to bypass the mile races to take in the others.
The 2009 Guineas was also the strongest of the last ten years.
A rare racehorse was Sea The Stars – best I’ve seen whilst following the sport. Those others names like Nijinsky, Dancing Brave, Secreteriat were all special too, and their legends live on in debates like these. But Sea The Stars was certainly the greatest over the last 20 years – no doubt about that.
"Mate So You Think won’t beat Frankel if he has a three length start. He wouldn’t have beaten Sea The Stars or Zarkava either"
Is that an opinion or a staement Ian?
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Its a guarantee buddy. I don’t think a lot of people realise just how good Frankel is. They will learn eventually.
Be careful how assertive you appear on fora like these. You could look very foolish a month or so.
Frankel COULD beat So You Think. BUT equally, So You Think COULD beat Frankel – and if he did you’d look foolish. Lesson – Do not use superlatives to make yourself appear clever.
As for So You Think vs Frankel, Over 1m 2f, I’d fancy So You Think. Over a mile, I’d tentatively pick Frankel to come out on top. But I wouldn’t really be confident in either scenario.
I don’t like to knock champions but Sea The Stars was around in an awful year. Mastercraftsman, Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory – Ballydoyle inmates that wouldn’t be as good as So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey or Await The Dawn, Fame And Glory infact now becoming a stayer to make way for a new better brigade. His Guineas was awful beat Delegator narrowly who is a sprinter and not a 120’s horse in any case.
A very good horse, very versatile and consistant but would he be up there claswise with the likes of Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerrard, Nijinsky, Dancing Brave? No not in my opinion. He didn’t beat good enough horses nor did he ever post an outstanding figure.
There. You are doing it again. Saying things to make yourself sound clever.
Why have you listed the horses that Sea The Stars beat and deduced that he "was around in an awful year?"
Yet you haven’t posted any horses who the other greats beat? You telling me they beat horses better than "Mastercraftsman, Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory?"
You are only chaning your arm I think.
And by the way, the horses you describe as "wouldn’t be as good as So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey or Await The Dawn" have won Twelve Group Ones between them. You know how many "So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey or Await The Dawn" have won? Answer – Nine. And Five of those were won by So You Think in Australia.
Back to the drawing board for you, son…..
I don’t like to knock champions but Sea The Stars was around in an awful year. Mastercraftsman, Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory – Ballydoyle inmates that wouldn’t be as good as So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey or Await The Dawn, Fame And Glory infact now becoming a stayer to make way for a new better brigade. His Guineas was awful beat Delegator narrowly who is a sprinter and not a 120’s horse in any case.
A very good horse, very versatile and consistant but would he be up there claswise with the likes of Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerrard, Nijinsky, Dancing Brave? No not in my opinion. He didn’t beat good enough horses nor did he ever post an outstanding figure.
There. You are doing it again. Saying things to make yourself sound clever.
Why have you listed the horses that Sea The Stars beat and deduced that he "was around in an awful year?"
Yet you haven’t posted any horses who the other greats beat? You telling me they beat horses better than "Mastercraftsman, Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory?"
You are only chaning your arm I think.
And by the way, the horses you describe as "wouldn’t be as good as So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey or Await The Dawn" have won Twelve Group Ones between them. You know how many "So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey or Await The Dawn" have won? Answer – Nine. And Five of those were won by So You Think in Australia.
Back to the drawing board for you, son…..
Mate if a handicapper raced against Blackpool donkeys and the races were called group ones he could win probably dozens of group ones its all about levels. The thing is when you get to group one level there is no other level to go to so if you are comfortably better than your rivals you can keep winning.
Goldikova has won 13(?) group ones, how many did Nijinsky win? Which was / is the better horse?
I don’t like to knock champions but Sea The Stars was around in an awful year. Mastercraftsman, Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory – Ballydoyle inmates that wouldn’t be as good as So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey or Await The Dawn, Fame And Glory infact now becoming a stayer to make way for a new better brigade. His Guineas was awful beat Delegator narrowly who is a sprinter and not a 120’s horse in any case.
A very good horse, very versatile and consistant but would he be up there claswise with the likes of Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerrard, Nijinsky, Dancing Brave? No not in my opinion. He didn’t beat good enough horses nor did he ever post an outstanding figure.
There. You are doing it again. Saying things to make yourself sound clever.
Why have you listed the horses that Sea The Stars beat and deduced that he "was around in an awful year?"
Yet you haven’t posted any horses who the other greats beat? You telling me they beat horses better than "Mastercraftsman, Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory?"
You are only chaning your arm I think.
And by the way, the horses you describe as "wouldn’t be as good as So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey or Await The Dawn" have won Twelve Group Ones between them. You know how many "So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey or Await The Dawn" have won? Answer – Nine. And Five of those were won by So You Think in Australia.
Back to the drawing board for you, son…..
Mate if a handicapper raced against Blackpool donkeys and the races were called group ones he could win probably dozens of group ones its all about levels. The thing is when you get to group one level there is no other level to go to so if you are comfortably better than your rivals you can keep winning.
Goldikova has won 13(?) group ones, how many did Nijinsky win? Which was / is the better horse?
So not only are you condemning the Group Ones that Sea The Stars won, you are also condemning the Group Ones won by the horses which Sea The Stars beat. Is there any form out there which stands up to your scrutiny?
Goldikova has been an outstanding racemare. Her record of 13 Group Ones says enough.
Nijinsky raced in a different era. I will not use modern methods to analyse a horse that raced back in the seventies. Nijinsky should be compared with the peers of his time. I understand that he is a great because he was so far ahead of his peers and achieved feats unimaginable in that day?
I am unsure what specific convention was used to sort the greats from the very goods (I was not alive at the time) but nowadays, a good measure of a great racehorse is the number of Group Ones won versus range of distances which they were won at. Sea The Stars, is as such, a great.
So far, all you have been able to contribute to the negative of this statement is that Sea The Stars beat bad horses, and those bad horses beat other bad horses. I laugh at that. First of all, what evidence is there that they were any worse than any other crop in the last 20 years? Secondly, having analysed it myself, it appears they were actually quite strong.
Any chance you might list the horses that Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerard, Nijinsky, Dancing Brave beat too?
I’m just curious. You say Sea The Stars beat bad horses. Who did the other greats beat that were so much better?
Guess there’ll Irish Guineas winners, Irish Derby winners, Coronation Cup winners, Sussex Stakes winners, QEII winners, Ascot Gold Cup winners, Juddmonte winners, Tattersalls Gold Cup winners all in there?
In the last 50 years or so, I have seen most of those horses many regard as great horses – from Sea Bird II to Nijinsky, from Brigadier Gerard/Mill Reef through to Shergar, and from Dancing Brave to Sea The Stars.
As in most sports, whether it be racing, football, boxing, golf, tennis, formula 1, athletics etc … the great champions can only be as good as the era they competed in – beyond that, it is merely conjecture. We can only ever guess as to who would have beat whom and which one was better than the other.
I suppose horse racing differs slightly from the other sports as we have official ratings to go on. Timeform maintains that Sea Bird II was the daddy of all ( I would agree with that ) with the usual suspects not far behind. They have rated Sea The Stars on 140.
You can choose to disagree with that figure – whether you reckon it’s too high or too low.I, for one, think that Sea The Stars was definitely in the same class as Nijinsky, Mill Reef and Dancing Brave – I have no doubt whatsoever – and in my opinion, John oxx’s colt would certainly have given each of those a run for their money. To me, Sea The Stars was a superb specimen and above all else, he exuded class and always found a way to win.
It is interesting to hear the views of both Brigadier Gerard’s jockey, Joe Mercer, and Mill Reef’s former trainer, Ian Balding, on the subject and merits of Sea The Stars.
Ian Balding said that he now regards Sea The Stars as superior to Mill Reef. High praise indeed, as previously he said that his liitle colt would have beaten Nijinsky. Like many others however, Joe Mercer remains unconvinced, stating that he ( Sea the Stars ), whilst a very good horse, still ranks some way behind the best three horses he has ever seen. The three he named (in order of preference ) were 1) Ribot , 2) Sea Bird II and 3) Brigadier Gerard.
That’s what makes our beloved sport so special and intriguing – those differences of opinion.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Ian Balding said that he now regards Sea The Stars as superior to Mill Reef. High praise indeed, as previously he said that his liitle colt would have beaten Nijinsky. Like many others however, Joe Mercer remains unconvinced, stating that he ( Sea the Stars ), whilst a very good horse, still ranks some way behind the best three horses he has ever seen. The three he named (in order of preference ) were 1) Ribot , 2) Sea Bird II and 3) Brigadier Gerard.
Interesting to hear that comment from Ian Balding. It took me a little by surprise, you would think, rose tinted glasses and all, he would defend his great little champion.
It is very difficult to weigh up horses of different generations.On their day all were fantastic. Although the late 60’s early 70’s did seem a golden era with the likes of Vaguely Noble, Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard and Sea Bird the great mares Allez France and Dahlia and Lianga, the very near great Royal Palace, Sir Ivor, Busted and Grundy. I suppose you could throw Busted’s son Bustino into that lot as he gave Grundy such a fight in one of the greatest races I’ve ever seen.
Of course we should give our friends across the pond a mention, they had one or two of their own around that time like Buckpasser, Damascus, Forego, Spectacular Bid and of course the incredible Secretariat.
I think Joe’s pretty near the money as far as the Europeans are concerned but that Secretariat must have been something, that Belmont win was even more unbelievable than Frankel’s 2000.
Ian Balding said that he now regards Sea The Stars as superior to Mill Reef. High praise indeed, as previously he said that his liitle colt would have beaten Nijinsky. Like many others however, Joe Mercer remains unconvinced, stating that he ( Sea the Stars ), whilst a very good horse, still ranks some way behind the best three horses he has ever seen. The three he named (in order of preference ) were 1) Ribot , 2) Sea Bird II and 3) Brigadier Gerard.
Interesting to hear that comment from Ian Balding. It took me a little by surprise, you would think, rose tinted glasses and all, he would defend his great little champion.
It is very difficult to weigh up horses of different generations.On their day all were fantastic. Although the late 60’s early 70’s did seem a golden era with the likes of Vaguely Noble, Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard and Sea Bird the great mares Allez France and Dahlia and Lianga, the very near great Royal Palace, Sir Ivor, Busted and Grundy. I suppose you could throw Busted’s son Bustino into that lot as he gave Grundy such a fight in one of the greatest races I’ve ever seen.
Of course we should give our friends across the pond a mention, they had one or two of their own around that time like Buckpasser, Damascus, Forego, Spectacular Bid and of course the incredible Secretariat.
I think Joe’s pretty near the money as far as the Europeans are concerned but that Secretariat must have been something, that Belmont win was even more unbelievable than Frankel’s 2000.
When Sea the Stars won the Guineas, he had 3 subsequent Group One winners, 3 Group 2 winners and 2 Group 3 winners behind him. There is still a distinct possibility that Delegator and Cityscape could improve their records.
Now either the European pattern is a load of rubbish or Sea the Stars beat one of the strongest Guineas fields of recent times. The Guineas requires a horse to show some precocity and also the speed to win over a mile. There is an old adage quoted in Roger Mortimer’s fabulous tome on the history of the Derby Stakes; "The fittest horse wins the guineas, the luckiest horse wins the Derby and the best horse wins the Leger."
While the Leger has been usurped by other races with greater kudos, I appreciate the sentiment that a horse that can win over the Rowley Mile in May and the Arc de Triomphe in October is a special animal, to have won the Derby, Eclipse, Juddmonte and Irish Champion in between is extraordinary.- Total Posts 17716
When Sea the Stars won the Guineas, he had 3 subsequent Group One winners, 3 Group 2 winners and 2 Group 3 winners behind him. There is still a distinct possibility that Delegator and Cityscape could improve their records.
Now either the European pattern is a load of rubbish or Sea the Stars beat one of the strongest Guineas fields of recent times.It’s not the European pattern that’s rubbish, just the rest of that particular sentence!
Of those behind Sea The Stars: Delegator has since won a soft gp2 and a listed race before finding his true metier as a sprinter, Ghan Amhras (just 2l behind STS) has beaten precisely nothing, RVW and Mastercraftsmen (both long striding horses, who have proved best up with the pace) were clearly ridden with another day in mind, Evasive has lived up to his name, and Cheerful Delights (btn a mere 6l) has managed just one listed placing from his 6 races since.
If that’s one of the strongest Guinea’s fields, I’ll run in the next one.
Poor effort Reethard,You highlite the losers and ignore the group one horses in the race by saying they were long striding horses. That is goobly goop. Long striding has nothing to do with winning or losing. Bet more long striding horses have lost than have won.Both rip and master were group one horses who deserve better than using them to downgrade the Guineas.You are on a losing mission washing the sparkle off Sea the Stars.Winning every group one from June till October,including the Guineas and the Derby, that he entered is hard to disccount. Don’t waste your time.
Don’t know how anyone could take "Reet Hard" seriously after his above comment. Either he is winding up or genuinely hasn’t a clue.
The 2009 2000 Guineas was the strongest in the last 10 years. Probably could go further back but I’ve only been following the sport that long.
- Total Posts 17716
Andyod
Believe it or not, long-striding horses win races with their stride – the better the race the more they have to use it.RVW was trained and ridden as a middle distance horse right up until the Eclipse, where he didn’t quite last home (travelled notably better than STS until the distance). In every single 1m race afterwards, he was ridden right up with the pace, never out of the first 2 – totally different to how he was ridden in the Guineas.
Mastercraftsman likewise was always ridden up with the pace at 7f/1m – the only exceptions being the Breeder’s Cup (where he was slowly away and trapped on the rail) and the Guineas, where – as AOB reiterated afterwards – he needed the run.So You Think
You cannot judge horses on A beat B without considering the circumstances. Come back when when you can read and understand form – then you might be taken seriously.
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