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Quote: from lollys mate on 6:55 pm on Aug. 23, 2005[br]
And by the way, I’m sure that you poo aswell.
<br>Indeed I do, lolly, but I don’t feel the need to post it on the internet when I do – especially a racing forum! I’m sure there are forums whose members would be far more interested in your bowel movements than most on here.
Perhaps that’s what’s really wrong with society ~ if we were all a bit more open with our bowels, so to speak, like the late Isidore Kerman’s mother, then the world would possibly be a warmer, happier place. Or maybe not.
K.Y.B.O
rory.
I’m sorry mate, but I dont understand your post.
Who is Isidore Kerman’s mother?
And the K.Y.B.O thing has got me guessing?
ACR1.
I’m sorry if my toilet talk upset you, but I really had to go!
BTW. Check out this one! (after dinner)
Its a bit sick, very sick, and theres nothing about racing either.
There’s a hell of a lot of this thread to catch up with if, like me, you’ve only just looked at it!
As someone who will be moving back to London in 12 days’ time, I have to say I am ambivalent about the place. I always think it is great—"cool" even—when I visit it, but as for living there……….well, we’ll see.
I’m hoping that Ian’s "it is the place to live if you haven’t got a family" proves to be true, even though my age (wrong side of 40 now) disqualifies me in another respect.
I enjoyed greatly Tooting’s Ode To London at the beginning of this thread, agreed with just about all that Aranalde said (and even more the way he/she said it), would echo Grimes’s "Pembrokeshire is heaven on earth" and am puzzled if pleased by graysoncolumn’s citing of the wind farm above Halifax as a contender.
Hebden Bridge (border of Yorkshire/Lancashire, great pubs, full of liberals and intellectuals) deserves a mention, IMO.
Lolly’s mate,
Isidore Kerman (RIP) was the chairman of Plumpton Racecourse and owner of a string of horses with Josh Gifford and latterly Richard Rowe (White, large red cross, royal blue cap); his best runner was the high class hurdler Kybo who would have won a Champion Hurdle in a different era. Kybo was named after the postscript his mother used to include in her letters to him when he was at boarding school. K.Y.B.O ~ Keep Your Bowels Open.
Quote: from Prufrock on 7:16 pm on Aug. 24, 2005[br] and am puzzled if pleased by graysoncolumn’s citing of the wind farm above Halifax as a contender.
Hebden Bridge (border of Yorkshire/Lancashire, great pubs, full of liberals and intellectuals) deserves a mention, IMO.<br>
<br>Puzzled? The wind farm is lovely, Pruf, as are all wind farms generally. Cue alternative power resources thread.
Hebden Bridge is indeed a wonderful place for all the reasons mentioned. Possibly because of these it is also, trivia fans, the place in Britain with the biggest head count of lesbians per thousand population.
If you’re still sticking to the convictions of your thread about wanting to a learn new thing every day, Lolly’s Mate, will that do you for today? :)
Jeremy<br>(graysonscolumn)
(Edited by graysonscolumn at 2:27 pm on Aug. 25, 2005)
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
And Nelson’s Wine Bar has probably the biggest (short-haired) headcount of lesbians in Hebden Bridge…..
It’s well worth a visit: fabulous hummus and sun-dried tomato paninis…….
Quote: from Aranalde on 10:43 am on June 12, 2005[br]Lollys Mate
Enoch Powell was not right. He predicted violence between the existing population and immigrants.
Fancy going to Paris this week ?
Aranalde you make me laugh.
I think the rose tinted glasses you wear have just been shattered. Its in Paris, Toulouse, west, east, north France, its started in Brussles and its coming to a town near you !
England will have the riots you said they never will, very, very soon!
(Edited by lollys mate at 7:56 pm on Nov. 7, 2005)
Fancy going to Paris this week ?
Sure, just send me the ticket and I’ll be on my way.
These riots aren’t really in Paris. They’re in the grim estates north/north-east of the city itself.
I’ve been in a couple of those places and they’re not places I’d hang out at night time.
Having said that, I wouldn’t hang out in Wester Hailes or Granton at night time, either.
Steve
(Edited by stevedvg at 9:25 pm on Nov. 7, 2005)
Yawn
Firstly, Enoch Powell was talking in 1968 about the passing of the Race Relations Act and the state of immigration at that time.
Enoch Powell’s classical quotation about seeing the Tiber foaming with blood and his mention earlier in his speech of the Race Relations Act being a match to gunpowder were combined with two anecdotal stories from constituents who feared the growth of immigration. His essential point was that the extent of immigration at that time and the passing of the Race Relations Act would lead to some sort of explosion of violence between immigrants and native-born white people. This patently hasn’t happened and thirty-seven years on, we are still waiting for his dire prophecies to be fulfilled. Meanwhile, the sons and daughters of those immigrants and in turn their sons and daughters are growing up as British citizens.
The riots in France are to do with the sense of injustice that immigrants and the descendants of immigrants feel towards the police and towards the French government at this particular time. Whether they are justified in feeling this way is another matter. I am not an expert on French politics and I suspect you are not either. What the riots are not about is violence between immigrants and those who were born there, which is what Enoch Powell was implying would happen inevitably. He was wrong.
Still, nice try Lolly’s Mate. Ten out of ten for persistence.
(Edited by Aranalde at 11:45 am on Nov. 8, 2005)
Has anybody seen the cracking film ‘La Haine’?
Hi LM…. I saw this and I thought of you!
Hi Kotki.
Does this film have a damn good looking family man who’s a carpenter and want’s nothing else but to look after his family and give them a fair quality of life?
ZZZZ. aranalde.
Would you agree with local people who have lived in there home town for many generations rioting in their own cities or towns because they feel a "sence of injustice"?<br> You dont seem to get it, and you you probably never will until you live amongst mass imigrants!
Aranalde. I want you to answer this. Do you think that mass immigration is a good or bad thing?
Our local MP, Mr Tony McNulty (who, by some coincidence is the new minister for immigration) has been "suprised" by the increase in the ammount of immigrants arriving upon our shores.
Apparently its …… wait for it………..
18 times what they expected..
And that only the ones that they know about!
Lolly’s Mate
You suggested that the riots in France prove that Enoch Powell was right. I explained how they did nothing of the kind.
At no stage did I say I felt the riots were justified or that I agreed with them. I merely repeated what others had said regarding the motivations of the rioters. Whether they are right or wrong is not for me to say, nor is it the subject of your original post.
Would you agree with local people who have lived in there home town for many generations rioting in their own cities or towns because they feel a "sence of injustice"
That would depend on what they were rioting about. The fact is that there has not been mass violence between immigrants and people who were born here. Powell said there would be and there hasn’t been in 37 years.
And I really do think we have done the immigration debate to death already. We disagree and that’s an end to it. <br>
Interestingly, there’s a piece about Clichy-sous-Bois by the inner-city chronicler Theodore Dalrymple tucked away quietly in last week’s Spectator, clearly written before they became any kind of news beyond the immediate locality:
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It’s a suburb of Paris, social housing territory, and social housing, in modern societies at least, means antisocial behaviour.  Such areas are, in effect, riots waiting to happen.
The cause of the riot…was the death of two youths and the severe burns of another.  They apparently formed members of a group of 15 who were peacefully breaking into a workshop when the police arrived and arrested six of them.
They fled and took refuge in an electricity transformer by climbing over two walls complete with eloquent notices that millions of volts were bad for you, where two of them were electrocuted to death and one suffered severe burns.  The two dead were of Turkish and Malian extraction..Perhaps the new methods of teaching had left them unable to read, at least at speed.
The police felt it politic, in order to calm the situation, to issue a statement to the effect that the three  were not being cased ‘physically’ at the time of their sanctuary in the installation of Electricite de France – but, as the good book says, the guilty fleeth where no man pursueth.
Alas, the police’s sensitivity did not calm the situation.  Rioting at the terrible injustice done to the three youths ensued, kindergartens and schools were stoned in natural consequence of their martyrdom, and 28 cars were burnt.  The fact that the cars probably belonged to poor inhabitants of the quartier did not inhibit the rioters, or even give them pause; in such a situation it is self-expression that counts. ÂÂÂ
A shot was fired at one of the armoured vehicles carrying the forces of law if not of order, and pierced its armour: a testimony to the increasing fire-power of the slums.
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It goes on to say that the imam of the area said that arrests there were often strong-armed and that therefore youths felt humiliated by them.  However you have to wonder how many of them come quietly with "it’s a fair cop, guv".
After noting that "they marched in homage to the deceased on the day following the rioting", he observes that "the deaths of the two were a tragedy to those who loved them, of course, and it is tragic also that youths feel that breaking into workshops gives meaning to life, but even allowing for the impetuosity of youth its difficult to see anything in their conduct worthy of homage".
It has echoes of those parents in the UK who complain that a great injustice has happened when their kids steal a car, speed it, and kill themselves in a predictable crash.  In their eyes it genuinely all becomes the fault of the police and society: no sense of free will or their own responsibility in any of it.
More the consequence of  social decomposition and creating and sustaining a (now not so) underclass, than a racial issue. ÂÂÂ
You’ll see it every day in inner-city magistrates courts, just as in the inner-city hospitals and prisons where Mr Dalrymple practises his day job.  ÂÂÂ
best regards
wit<br>
What been missing from the UK coverage of the French riots is an understanding of the difference between the working environment here and how things are in France.
Compared to the UK, it’s a lot harder to break into an industry in France. Usually it takes both qualifications and experience to get a good job.
This means they have the situation where a lot of graduates take unpaid work with a business in the hope that that leads to a paid job.
And a lot of those unpaid positions come from the connections someone has.
There is also a lot of protectionism in the public sector where those already in the jobs are determined to make sure they stay that way and it make it hard for outsiders to get a decent job in the civil service.
So, if you lack the qualifications and don’t have the connections, it’s pretty tough going.
And that’s the reality that faces people in the areas where the riots started.
And it’s been a reality that’s existed in those areas for a long time (the film Kotki mentioned was made 10 years ago) and I’m not aware of any real attempt being made to improve opportunities in there.
Having said all that:
(1) I think a lot of what has happened since the initial riots is just a bunch of bored teenagers having a bit of excitement by taking on the police.
(2) I don’t think it’s a racial conflict between the locals and the police.
If the police in Ile de France were hell bent on pushing around black people, they would have done something about those black guys who used to openly sell drugs 10 minutes from where I lived in Paris.
In my experience, the French police are phenomenally apathetic and, in all the time I’ve spent in Paris, I think I saw one guy being arrested.
The notion that the police in, say, La Courneuve (one of the NE suburbs) are a totally different breed and a bunch of buzy-bees who are determined to enforce every single rule and arrest everyone defies common sense.
Steve
stevedvg,
your points were well taken by Mr Dalrymple, who said elsewhere in his piece:
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According to Le Monde, they marched in homage to the deceased on the day following the rioting. ÂÂÂ
Were they heroes of the resistance,  then?  If so, resistance to what? ÂÂÂ
To social security, social housing, and the mobile phones with which some of the rioters were reported to have called in reinforcements from elsewhere? ÂÂÂ
To the inflexibility of France’s labour laws, which protect those already in employment but prevent the unemployed from finding work?
The deaths were a tragedy to those who loved them but……it is difficult to see anything in their conduct worthy of homage.
How widespread is disorder in the suburbs of French towns and cities?  The interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy has built a career on emphasising its scope.  In an interview with Le Monde he once said that 9,000 police vehicles had been stoned in the previous 10 months, and that between 20 and 40 cars were burnt out every night in France.  Certainly, the latter figure is not an exaggeration: every suburb worth its salt is littered with the carcasses of burnt-out cars.  If Britain is the car-theft champion of the world, France is the vehicle-arson champion.
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All of this written very early on in events and before they became "news". ÂÂÂ
The theme of his short article is actually how the French decry anything Anglo-Saxon but end up following it,  before getting into "they even have small riots like ours".
Not sure what he’ll say to the way things have now developed but he ended his piece with:
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In defence of French social underdevelopment, however, it must be said that arson is much less likely to bother members of the French bourgeoisie.  In France, your car will not be burnt out unless you are at least teetering on the edge of relative poverty…..Britain is a much more egalitarian society than France, whose criminality is so much better zoned.
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<br>Of course, all kinds of interests outside, as well as within, France are now coming to put their own spin on events.  ÂÂÂ
The BBC review of Mid-East press has comments from Turkish and Iranian papers which seem to say rather more about the commenters than anything else:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle … 418256.stm
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Iran’s Hamshahri
Following recent riots in France, social experts opined that these incidents could have been predicted. Discrimination in France – particularly pressures over immigrants and Muslims – have fanned the flames of discrimination while Jews enjoy total freedom in the country. Such incidents are expected in other Western countries which are based on secular values.
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plus ca change
best regards
wit
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