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Good post Robert, spot on.
Maybe we should change all the varied tracks we have in this country to left hand ovals, surely that should make it simpler and appeal to the overseas market?Seriously though I’m getting thoroughly disenchanted with racing in this country and what they’ve done or are doing to it, from an owner and regular racegoer only 5 years ago I do neither now and have no inclination to.
Maybe it’s best to let them do what they want to the sport and just use it as a betting vehicle when it suits.
How does this sport have someone employed at the BHA who believes changing stall numbers will result in more overseas runners?
Dubai World Cup or Ascot with our inside, number 1 stalls?
Breeders’ Cup or Ascot with our inside, number 1 stalls?
The idea should make things simpler to understand for round course races on R/H tracks, although I realise anyone who takes a day to day interest understands it all perfectly well. Straight courses will just get confusing for some, but the way I’ve thought it through a track like Ripon will see the number 1 stall closest to the far-side rail.
Just don’t forget the sport is broadening its appeal.
Robert99: I totally agree with you. The BHA is making a change that adds value to nothing and no-one, and steadfastly refusing to countenance changes that would be beneficial to punters and racegoers. The BHA yet again making a change without first flagging it up to the people who ultimately pay the bills, and could help them make better decisions. As they say: “You coulndn’t make it up, could you. No-one would believe you”.
To the experienced and knowledgeable people on this thread who say it makes perfect sense, I notice that you did not say why you thought it was sensible, other than conformity. I think it makes perfect sense to read from left to right; Number One is on the left, then Two, then Three, etc. No confusion there at all. In a country where we have left hand, right hand, straight, and figure of eight courses, this new edict is a recipe for confusion, uncertainty and annoyance. Conformity with the rest of the world is fine if there is some value in doing it. Our courses are not all left handed. Yet. Or is that the BHA’s next move?
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Knowing the No.1 draw will always be on the inside means that casual punters will not have to think about whether tracks are left- or right-handed before factoring their conception of the draw bias into betting calculations.
And in our wonderful world, the less people have to think about anything, the more desirable that is perceived to be. Ultimately of course the FIFA model of deciding who the winner is in advance and selling that information to the highest bidder may well prove to be the preferred commercial and marketing model.
The idea of numbering the horses according to their draw rather than their weight or the alphabetical name of their owner ought to be considered, I agree.
Anyone know yet how much British racing is making from the lucrative overseas market since the advent of 48 hour decs (not much looking at the 17k on offer for yesterdays abandoned Lingfield card) and is losing from British punters backing all the non runners created by them?
Knowing the No.1 draw will always be on the inside means that casual punters will not have to think about whether tracks are left- or right-handed before factoring their conception of the draw bias into betting calculations.
I think that casual punters might not take the draw into account at all. On straight courses where the stalls can be placed on either side of the track, or even in the middle, the new rules would not help. On certain courses on particular types of going the jockeys swing wide round the bend and race up the far rail. On certain courses there are now cutaways on the inside rail that allow hold up horses to get up the inside. But most of all it is knowing the horses that makes all the difference in understanding whether having an inside or outside draw is any advantage. An habitually slow starter running at Chester from Stall One would suffer from the draw rather than benefit from it. Unless the BHA standardize all tracks in the UK, the punter really has to know the track configuration and the racing style of the horses to make a good evaluation of what the draw means. The simple number on the stall at a UK track confers very little information on its own. Overseas punters, betting on UK racing, would be deluding themseves if they thought that the draw number would help them without knowing that Ascot is right handed, Newbury left, Chester tight, etc. And if they know that, then they have no need of this new regulation.
This new edict is window dressing, the appearance of doing good but achieving little or nothing for punters either in the UK or overseas. The BHA should be spending this time on achieving things of much more value than this, and not annoying all the form and stats people.
Stall numbering left-to-right ascertained from a position behind the stalls is an endearing idiosyncrasy; and the question ‘using no more than a straight-edge, compass and the 1inch-to-the-mile Ordnance Survey maps you’ve been supplied with, determine the high, low, stands, far, inside, outside draws at Epsom, Beverley and Sandown’ a regular but feared inclusion in the GCSE Punting exam paper.
Great fun it all is, but daft. So I’ve no problem with the proposed change, though it will take this ageing dog a long time to learn the new trick of forsaking the illogical for the logical
Though to labour APRacing’s rather good ‘tinkering with the Titanic’ analogies when RFC BHA XYZ come up with their latest wheeze whilst heads remain buried in the sand – on a sinking ship it matters little what order the lifeboats are numbered in
They might want to look at the situation where you can watch Ripon one week and the stalls will be on the stand side but the next week they’re on the far side thus altering the position that Stall 1 (or any othe for that matter) is actually situated in.
Stall numbering left-to-right ascertained from a position behind the stalls is an endearing idiosyncrasy; and the question ‘using no more than a straight-edge, compass and the 1inch-to-the-mile Ordnance Survey maps you’ve been supplied with, determine the high, low, stands, far, inside, outside draws at Epsom, Beverley and Sandown’ a regular but feared inclusion in the GCSE Punting exam paper.
Great fun it all is, but daft. So I’ve no problem with the proposed change, though it will take this ageing dog a long time to learn the new trick of forsaking the illogical for the logical
Though to labour APRacing’s rather good ‘tinkering with the Titanic’ analogies when RFC BHA XYZ come up with their latest wheeze whilst heads remain buried in the sand – on a sinking ship it matters little what order the lifeboats are numbered in
But isn’t it comforting for UK and overseas punters (and UK racing stats compilers) to know that with BHA logic that the draw will be in reverse order on the Sandown 5F course depending on whether the stalls are against the nearside rail or the far side.
OK, simple question – it’s the 2011 Newmarket July meeting and there’s a maximum field of 20 for the July Cup, so that the stalls are across the entire width of the course, touching both rails.
If they are using the far side track (i.e far side of the central dividing rail), where is stall 1.
And would it be different if they were using the near side half of the track?
I know what the answers would have been in 2010 – but I have no clear idea what they should be for 2011.
AP
Not a waste of time, a good idea which will cost nothing. How will it be worked out, though at Windsor and Fontwell?
Fontwell hosts no Flat racing, so there’s no issue there.
Regarding Windsor, I don’t think any race distances much above 1m4f, and therefore any of the left-hand bends after the finishing post, are actually used much (if at all) nowadays. On that basis it’s probably more accuarate to regard the Thameside track as a right-handed course, albeit one which crosses over itself, rather than a figure of eight course per se.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Not a waste of time, a good idea which will cost nothing. How will it be worked out, though at Windsor and Fontwell?
Fontwell hosts no Flat racing, so there’s no issue there.
gc
Once they take out the NH fences and hurdles so as not to confuse overseas punters then they will have to introduce a NH draw so as not to confuse overseas punters (scratching their heads looking for the draw stats) and also introduce starting stalls in the mud so as not to confuse overseas punters of which side the stalls were placed.
Meanwhile, they do not actually even enforce that a flat racing horse actually starts from the stall it was drawn for. Is that logical or not logical? Does that confuse or not confuse?
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The overseas punters that they are trying to get "Uniformity" with will be confused even more if they think that the rail position will always be one when they switch the stalls around as they do on several festivals.
They will have to read if its Far Course stands side, Far course Near side, Stands course near side or stand course far side A La Newmarket
These overseas punters have got to realise that we have a gross profits tax system in place……….
OK, simple question – it’s the 2011 Newmarket July meeting and there’s a maximum field of 20 for the July Cup, so that the stalls are across the entire width of the course, touching both rails.
If they are using the far side track (i.e far side of the central dividing rail), where is stall 1.
And would it be different if they were using the near side half of the track?
I know what the answers would have been in 2010 – but I have no clear idea what they should be for 2011.
Very good
As of 2010 Far Far and Far Stands would be my answer, though as I believe most databases still don’t differentiate between the two halves, Far and Far
As of 2011, pass. Over to Paul Struthers and Rodders…
…a question that would grace an Oxbridge Punting Tripos final year examination paper
Having considered this further I’ve come to the conclusion it’s best left as it is; not least because the changes will balls up the draw data extracted from databases, unless the draw-bias devotee is prepared to start afresh in 2011
The July Course problem will be solved by another aspect of these changes.
In order to avoid confusion between countries using different numbering systems, a uniform system of binary shall be adopted for racecard numbers and draws. The only drawback is their length, which will have to be restricted to four digits owing to media ‘space constraints’. This will make 20 runner fields on the July course a thing of the past – 15 runner maximums from now on.
The July Course problem will be solved by another aspect of these changes.
In order to avoid confusion between countries using different numbering systems, a uniform system of binary shall be adopted for racecard numbers and draws. The only drawback is their length, which will have to be restricted to four digits owing to media ‘space constraints’. This will make 20 runner fields on the July course a thing of the past – 15 runner maximums from now on.
That’s a bit clever for the BHA..
I’ve said more than a 1100 times that I 1000 it when life get too complicated. I’d have a proper 0101 star life, if only I could get to cope with the BHA like a Hong Kong gambler, but I’m usually at 0110’s and 0111’s with all this draw malarkey. I get in a right 0010 and 1000 about it. I’d give this new initiative 1010 out of 1010 if I really thought it would help the punter, but at best I’d give it a 0011. I reckon a lot of the BHA top brass don’t what it’s 0100.
On the July Course, AFAIK Stall 1 would be nearest the stands rail as Newmarket is classed as a Right Handed course and therefore, in theory, nearest the inside rail. To use AP’s example, the stall numbering would be opposite to 2010 on both Near Side and Far Side strips.
For clarification, all loop courses are being termed Right Handed too (Salisbury, Windsor, Goodwood).
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