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Claiming Races and the Form Book

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  • #12473
    apracing
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    To anyone that studies the form of claiming races, it’s pretty obvious that the price set for each runner by connections, and hence the weight it carries, is the most important factor. But the price is never included in the form book, making subsequent study of claiming form tricky, unless you keep records yourself.

    There are two pieces of information that I believe should be included in the official form book. The first is the maximum price set for the race, as that highlights the class of the race. There’s a world of difference between a claimer with a £20k top price and one with a £10k maximum – probably the equivalent of comparing a 0-80 with a 0-60.

    The second is the claiming price for each horse. This would build up a picture of the trainer’s intentions when a horse runs in a series of claimers, as we’d be able to see whether his valuation of the horse was rising or falling.

    Given the usual rate of change in the racing world, I don’t expect I will live to see this implemented, but surely the first figure (the max price for the race) could be put in the data field normally used to give the rating band for a handicap – so that 61-80 might be replaced by £20k.

    And the claiming price could go in the field currently used for the official handicap rating, which isn’t all that relevant in a claiming race and can easily be worked out by looking at the overall form for the horse if you want to know it.

    Any chance of Timeform setting an example here DJ ?

    AP

    #245530
    Leemac
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    Interesting points AP, leave it with me – I’ll float the idea and report back

    #245534
    apracing
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    Thanks Lee.

    AP

    #245570
    Prufrock
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    Sounds a good idea to me. I imagine it would be a must in the US of A.

    #245767
    yorkshirepudding
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    • Total Posts 608

    Trainers like David Nichols use claimers all the time with horses who cannot win a handicap but can beat other claimers, Bailyborough and Royal Dignitary are class examples of that.

    #245806
    Adrian
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    Yes Equibase list the claiming price of each horse as part of their racechart.

    They also list who are the new owner and trainer for any horses which changed hands.

    For any newbies – in America their system is different to ours in that claimers are the bread and butter of their racing, whereas here we have mostly handicaps using the national official ratings. Usually all the horses in a US claiming race are to be bought for the same value. This means that horses run in grades of claimers rather than, as over here, trainers handicapping them in a particular race. You’ll often find conditions which stop horses running in a race if they have started for XX claiming value. Some snooty tracks at the top end of the scale don’t even issue stalls to horses which have run for very cheap claiming prices.

    Most importantly prospective purchasers have to put in their bids before the race. Therefore, whilst they could have bought the winner, they could also have bought a horse which has just broken down.

    #245843
    sberry
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    • Total Posts 1800

    Last time I bought the RP it used to list the prices or maximum price plus allowances so you could work out the price of each horse, not sure if it still does, don’t buy it anymore.

    Just checked on the website as since it’s gone ‘members’ I’ve noticed the tick box for race conditions by each race so just checked the next claimer and found this:

    RACE CONDITIONS: £3,400 guaranteed For 3yo, each claimable at their advertised claiming price Weights colts and geldings 9st 7lb; fillies 9st 2lb Allowances for each £1000 below the maximum advertised claiming price of £18000 1lb Minimum claiming price £3,000.00 Entries 20 pay £ 17

    Which is pretty much what I remember the paper doing so at least the RP is providing this, if this is what you want.

    #245851
    apracing
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    • Total Posts 3329

    Simon,

    Agree that info is available with the racecard, but it isn’t included with the result. So I can find out the claiming price before the race, but not afterwards.

    It’s similar to putting the official handicap rating band for the race and the rating for each horse in the card, but not in the result. But in fact, that information is provided in both.

    AP

    #245854
    thedarkknight
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    Totally agree with AP’s points – just the other day I was wondering why a particular horse was entered in a seller – it took a trip to the BHA website to realise it was a 16k seller (as opposed to the usual 6k)

    Maybe the lack of information is related to the fact that it is just isn’t "done" to claim horses from certain yards in this country? The BHA need to clean up this part of the game first (i.e people being threatened with losing their kneecaps if they claim a certain horse)

    #245933
    Tuffers
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    • Total Posts 1402

    Maybe the lack of information is related to the fact that it is just isn’t "done" to claim horses from certain yards in this country? The BHA need to clean up this part of the game first (i.e people being threatened with losing their kneecaps if they claim a certain horse)

    I’m intrigued. Before I lose my kneecaps, which trainer’s horses should not be claimed?

    #245944
    Prufrock
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    Any idea how Kylkenny is, TDK?

    #245971
    Leemac
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    • Total Posts 74

    Update just to say it’s being looked into, will keep you updated
    Lee

    #245972
    rory
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    • Total Posts 2685

    Any idea how Kylkenny is, TDK?

    Kylkenny certainly not the horse TDK was referring to, but another interesting example of the "thou shalt not claim" mentality.

    #245985
    thedarkknight
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    • Total Posts 1299

    Any idea how Kylkenny is, TDK?

    No idea, no.

    #246420
    Kotkijet
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    • Total Posts 226

    Excellent post ap. Just a pedantic opinion here.

    I don’t believe that the claiming price of a horse can be considered to as a solid form guide. This is because the personal motivations for selling a horse varies for each individual owner.

    For example, an owner is finding it progressively harder to pay for the upkeep thus gets progressively more eager to sell the horse. Irrespective of the horse’s ability or expected performance. Thus a falling price could be miscontrued as a lack of faith in such horse.

    #246434
    apracing
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    • Total Posts 3329

    K,

    Wouldn’t argue with that, but at least if the info is in the public domain, we could form our own judgement about the motivation.

    There’s a prime example today of a horse that it appears connections are keen to move on to a new owner. Equipe De Nuit ran in two claimers on consecutive days early last week, priced at £12k in both. Today he runs at Yarmouth with a £10k price tag. On Wednesday, he’s entered at Brighton and Kempton with an £8k price tag.

    But maybe they just want to win a race …….

    AP

    #246441
    Kotkijet
    Member
    • Total Posts 226

    Indeed.

    By all means have the figures published as I’m sure they could be a useful tool for those who can interpret them with a degree of accuracy. I just fear that more often than not, they will prove to be red herrings.

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