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Although the distances between Denman and Neptunes Collonges were similar to last year; I don’t think either ran to form.
The horses to judge the form by are My Will and Exotic Dancer. I can not believe that at his age, My Will improved more than a pound or two. Also think, although Exotic Dancer is not always consistent; his best performances have been of a similar level.
May be this test brought a pound or two improvement out of Roll Along, but not much.
If Denman and Neptunes Collonges ran to form then Exotic Dancer, My Will and Roll Along must all have shown improvement. That is unlikely.
However, that is not to decry Kauto Dtar’s performance. It was his best yet and did it without being all out. I expect him to recieve a Timeform rating of either a pound or two above, or level with Desert Orchid’s best (Racing Post Chase). It was a better performance than Denman’s, that is for certain.
Denman may or may not be able to beat Kauto Star on soft going. But Kauto Star’s form on good-soft / good; is better than Denman’s soft ground form.
Mark
PC,
I answered your question in this post.
What form lines are you using in believing Denman’s Gold Cup was better?Mark
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
Just my opinion, but I think it would be wrong to judge today’s form on My Will.
The horse was effectively ridden for a place, never had to compete with the principals at any stage of the race, and had a totally easy time of doing what he did.
Consequently, having effectively run in his own race, I believe he is flattered by his proximity to some much better horses. Whatever one’s views, form just isn’t that linear.Kauto Star has landed three King George’s in effortless fashion, but Friday was the most complete performance of his career and, taking into consideration the way he travelled, jumped, the calibre of opposition and the historical significance, probably his best.
Denman ran a cracker. Quite interesting that many have said with a better preperation he would’ve been closer. Denman wasn’t injured between Kempton and Cheltenham, just failing to show his old sparkle at home.
We heard many contrasting, often contradicting reports regarding his wellbeing and fitness after Kempton, where connections were disappointed with his effort. It was that effort, not an injury, that put his participation in doubt. There was nothing wrong with his general fitness today, and perhaps Paul Nicholls was right that he had been kidding them at home prior to his comeback, where it is now pretty obvious he was badly in need of the run.
Denman defended his title with immense credit and he should be thereabouts next season.
Many have questioned Kauto’s form in the past few years, but there can be no better yardstick than Exotic Dancer. Kauto Star is very lucky to have him, but quite the opposite must be said for Exotic Dancer!!
In the absence of Kauto, Exotic Dancer has landed a Betfair Bowl and Lexus Chase in very impressive fashion, where he looked all over Neptune Collonges before that one departed. He was all wrong last year and his Gold Cup effort of 2008 should be forgotten.
In my opinion, he is the third best staying chaser in the country.
Unless the ground is much softer next year, you couldn’t fancy Neptune to get much closer and, with Cooldine looking a useful recruit, he may struggle to figure next year. He’ll continue to win good races in the absence of his stable companions and he should claim a hat-trick of victories in the Punchestown Gold Cup next month…if Kauto Star doesn’t turn up.
My Will and Roll Along had some good horses behind and all roads lead to Aintree. The pair were only 2L behind Neptune Collonges.
Barbers Shop travelled and jumped superbly well and he should prove a force over the intermediate distance next season and three miles on a flat track should prove ideal.
Madison Du Berlais and Air Force One will be better on a flatter track and, although I’m unsure about their end of season targets, they should be seen to greater effect in the Betfair Bowl.
Albertas Run is better than what he showed today and travelled really well. I expect him to return a better horse next year, when I hope the Grand National is on the agenda.
Kauto Star’s faultless performance was the epitome of what makes him such a great horse. Travelling, jumping and quickening better than anything else in the field. His jumping is a weapon, not an Achilles Heel.
Horses like Master Minded and Denman are assured, economical jumpers, unlike Kauto, who is a wonderfully flamboyant jumper and a joy to watch today. His flamboyant nature has made life difficult on occasions, but there’s no better horse to watch in full flow.
Ruby has called him ‘the greatest he’s ever ridden’ and I’m sure no horse, Master Minded included, gives him such a thrill in the saddle.
Kauto Star is one in a million and, in my opinion, still the best in the country.
The way i see it, but then i am a very uneducated punter
2008 Denman beat a below its best Kauto Star
2009 Kauto Star beat a below its best Denman
2010 Be nice to see them both at their best.It irks that me that the only time i ever have bet on Kauto was for the 2008 Gold Cup but thats life i suppose lol. Can’t see it ever been a backable price again for me. (ie 3/1+)
I’ll let you off – stay off the Tractor tonight…eh?
It’s a little clearer now, PC
It was more to illustrate how unlikely it is that Denman will be the second horse in two years to regain the GC.
Shhorry……
agree with you entirley. The one difference betwen Kauto Star and Arkle is Arkle never ever in his entire chasing career ran a bad race.
He got a self confesssed bad ride when beaten in the Hennessy and was running over adistance well short of his best when beaten by Flying Wild and Bonna Notte other than that it was just one awesome performance after another whether it was at the start middle or end of the season.
No doubt training methos have changed and trainers let horse down a bit and leave something to work on. We seen it with Zaynar today and we seen it with Kauto Star before the King George.
I”m sure they did itwith Arkle to an extent as well but he was so good noting could blow wind up his backside anyway.
Kauto Star is a super Super horse but Arkle was Denman with 2 extra gears is the best description I can think of.
Anyway Kauto Star will go down as the first horse to reatain the gold Cup
and come December 26th weather permitting he will probably become the first horse in history to win 4 King George VI Chases.
In 10 or 20 years time when I am dead and gone, some guy will come on here probably named "Himself II" or Fist of Fury II and tell the then oldtimers that the latest Gold Cup winner is a better horse than Kauto Star was. My best advice is tell them they are talking shyte
Didn’t Dessie win 4 King Georges?
Aside from all the chat about who ran to form, better than arkle etc etc isn’t it great to see such 2 good horses or 3 or 4 if you throw ED and NC in to the mix? I’ve been watching racing for 30 years and have had to listen to my dad spout on about Arkle et al and having read the book about himself he was clearly something special. However to be around to witness Kauto Star and Denman is what I’ve been waiting for all of these years. Truly a spectacular race yesterday but what makes it even better is they just might come back and do it again next year. How many days to go now?
Annoyed with myself for not going this year but next year will be a must.
The way i see it, but then i am a very uneducated punter
2008 Denman beat a below its best Kauto Star
2009 Kauto Star beat a below its best Denman
2010 Be nice to see them both at their best.I think that’s a fair way of looking at it plus both horses had thier going on winning years.
Blackbeard to conquer the World
I had a wonderful festival this year with my NAP big bucks coming home and i have been bullish about Kauto Star for some time now. That being said i dont fully subscribe to the theory that Kauto was unfit last year. The only way Denman was going to beat KS last year was by doing exactly what he did. The evidence of Kautos discomfort was clear to see but that would have been evident also if the high cruising speed was in fact the cause. On GS ground both fit i would have to give the nod to denman, with any ground variations obviously swinging the verdict either way.
As for 2010 i dont see either of these warhorses being the victor. I am not convinced about cooldine but at heir respective ages i believe the golden era of their dominance in the GC is in its twilight.
But what an era it has been.
Whats proper racing ground exactly?? And how soft was it last year???
Well, my interpretation of it is ground that isn’t going to slow a horse down or blunt its speed i.e. it’s probably fair to suggest Master Oats wouldn’t have sluiced up in a Gold Cup on goodish ground?
My comments weren’t necessarily to put down Denman – how can you forget the exhilarating Hennessy performance for example – more that I was really happy that Kauto put in a truly supreme display at Cheltenham.
Denman is an absolutely fantastic horse and made it a great race to watch, and I sincerely hope he’s back fully tuned up for round three next year. He might be the second in succession to regain his crown, and make it a deserved two Gold Cups apiece.
Like I said, I don’t think there was anything wrong with the general fitness and wellbeing of Denman.
It was his below-par effort at Kempton and subsequent poor homework that raised question marks about his participation in the Gold Cup.
Theses doubts were evident in the Gold Cup. I thought the race would be run to suit Kauto because connections were never going to employ the usual tactics on Denman.
It was this understandable change of tactics that got the horse beat. If they run the same race next year, even with Camp Denman full of confidence, the result would still be the same.
Denman beat Neptune Collonges by 7L last year and 8 1/2 L yesterday, even though both would have preferred softer conditions and NC had apparently improved.
Fist made the initial observation about NC’s proximity to Kauto last year and Jim McGrath echoed this opinion yesterday. Kauto’s 20L reversal of Denman can be accredited to better conditions and a lighter campaign, in my opinion.
I certainly noticed the difference yesterday compared to last year, when I also attended. He looked happier and, as Clive Smith stated, he had a spring in his step.
It will be interesting to see how Paul Nicholls handles Denman during the Summer. Surely he can’t allow Denman to return in the same condition, which could lead to further problems.
I still doubt whether Denman will return the same horse he was in 2007-2008. He can improve next year, but he has a mountain to climb to reverse 13L with Kauto.
Saying that, I doubt Kauto will ever put in a round of jumping like he did yesterday. Also, it’s always a crucial time when horses hit the big 1-0 (ten) and perhaps yesterday was Kauto’s defining moment. Nothing to stop him from winning a fourth King George, though.
Bring on 2010…
I agree. There is no horse capable of troubling KS in the upcoming king George. I wouldn’t put two further wins beyond the realms if possibility either.
- Total Posts 17716
I had a wonderful festival this year with my NAP big bucks coming home and i have been bullish about Kauto Star for some time now. That being said i dont fully subscribe to the theory that Kauto was unfit last year. The only way Denman was going to beat KS last year was by doing exactly what he did. The evidence of Kautos discomfort was clear to see but that would have been evident also if the high cruising speed was in fact the cause.
What high cruising speed?
This years Gold Cup was run 3 seconds faster than last years, and Kauto Star has already won 2 Tingle Creeks, so to suggest his discomfort last year was down to his lack of speed is fatuous in the extreme.I think people are getting carried away too.
There were no really credible opponents-tho I thought KS was on the wain-There are just no horses in the younger generation to challenge.
A fit Denman on soft going would be a different matter.
Had that race been run on soft it would have been a different race altogether.KS loved the going & the rest didnt.BTW I have followed Rollalong from when he was a debutant & love him to bits.Softer going is a must tho.I dont think he will ever improve that much to win a Gold Cup tho & Im sure 2m5f/2m6f suits better than 26 furlongs.
I think people are getting carried away too.
There were no really credible opponents-tho I thought KS was on the wain-There are just no horses in the younger generation to challenge.
A fit Denman on soft going would be a different matter.
Had that race been run on soft it would have been a different race altogether.KS loved the going & the rest didnt..
Exotic Dancer top RPR of 180? Denman even higher. Neptune Collonges high 170’s.
Its a golden age of staying chasers. The reason no youngsters are challenging is because they’re trying to jump into a select band of outstanding horses.
I think people are getting carried away too.
There were no really credible opponents-tho I thought KS was on the wain-There are just no horses in the younger generation to challenge.
A fit Denman on soft going would be a different matter.
Had that race been run on soft it would have been a different race altogether.KS loved the going & the rest didnt.BTW I have followed Rollalong from when he was a debutant & love him to bits.Softer going is a must tho.I dont think he will ever improve that much to win a Gold Cup tho & Im sure 2m5f/2m6f suits better than 26 furlongs.
Cooldine has the potential to improve in to a top class staying chaser. I would imagine he will be good enough to beat Exotic Dancer. IF Denman comes back to his best, and IF Kauto Star will be as good next year; I doubt if he’ll be good enough to beat them. But 2010 is another year, Denman may well be more difficult to train these days and both stable companions will be 10 years old. There must be a good chance neither will be at the top of their game.
Notre Pere is still improving and could be interesting if it came up soft next season.
Can’t see Exotic Dancer ot Neptunes Collonges improving now.
Kauto Star may well be better on good-soft or good going, particularly at 3m2f110y. And Denman is always likely to be better when stamina is at a premium, so is ideally suited by soft ground. Denman will have a chance of turning the tables on soft.
Though unless Denman can still improve, Kauto Star is better on good-soft / good; than Denman is on soft. Kauto Star is the better horse (imo).
Mark
Value Is EverythingCooldine was, to use a tired cliche, visually impressive, but I don’t think he beat a great deal – a collection of average horses and poor jumpers, really.
No doubt he can improve into a smart chaser next season and progress past the likes of Exotic Dancer and Neptune Collonges, but Kauto and Denman will need to decline significantly for the Irish horse to beat them.
Just my opinion, but I think it would be wrong to judge today’s form on My Will.
The horse was effectively ridden for a place, never had to compete with the principals at any stage of the race, and had a totally easy time of doing what he did.
Consequently, having effectively run in his own race, I believe he is flattered by his proximity to some much better horses. Whatever one’s views, form just isn’t that linear.My Will was in front of Exotic Dancer for two thirds of the race. Did not have the speed to go with the "principles". Under pressure before Roll Along, Alberta’s Run and Barber Shop. A few lengths behind them coming down the hill, before staying on past them in the final quarter mile. Don’t think it was due to being "ridden for a place".
Ideal National trial.
Value Is Everything
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