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The ground is pretty desperate now, esp for Cheltenham. Wonder how much it’ll dry out tomorrow on a forecast Sunny day?
Plenty of rain on to watered ground can make it false ground. Many horses don’t cope with it, different to proper soft / heavy. Although he hasn’t run any of his really good races on heavy.
That said still think he won’t be positioned again where he started today.
Value Is Everything“Shiskin should be plotted towards the king George now imo”.
Shishkin has proved many times on firmer faster ground he has the speed to lie up at 2 miles.
Today has nothing to do with not having enough speed.Value Is EverythingI’m hoping there’s more to it , Jesus Dessie hated heavy ground yet he still won a GC in it
Pick 3 on Saturday champion 2025/2026
“Only because Carvill’s Hill and Ten Plus fell”. 😉
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True, Desert Orchid’s Gold Cup was nowhere near his best quality performance, Glad.
However, Dessie made jumping pay and Carvills Hill was at the time a novice chaser who was known to make the odd bad mistake.
Ten Plus’s tragic fall was awful, but was not going that well at the time of his fall 3 out, surely too far out for anyone to be saying he would have won.However, Dessie’s performance was if I remember rated around a stone less than his best. So you’re right that had there been a better than around Timeform 171 horse to run to form… Dessie would not have won.
Value Is EverythingCan’t accept it was the ground; he looked beaten after 2 fences, at least should have been able to lay up till then. Perhaps it’s just an off day, like CPS had in the Tingle Creek.
I’ll accept it was the ground. So many times we see horses not being able to get their feet out when it gets that deep. Hopefully we see him again bounce back at Aintree or Sandown.
“Patrick goes down on another one cruising.”
And based on an interview he gave to Lydia Hislop yesterday, the Douvan fall clearly still hurts.
“Can’t accept it was the ground; he looked beaten after 2 fences ”
Agree Befair. Just watched the race back and he looked like a horse who did not fancy it from the word Go. I would be nervous about backing him after that.
There was a poster here last year named shipitholabola who was very hostile to Shishkin and questioned his temperament. His abrasive manner got him banned but I suppose we have to ask (through gritted teeth) if maybe he had a point after all?
Admit another poster has a point ……sorry doesn’t compute , your on the wrong forum CAS lol
Pick 3 on Saturday champion 2025/2026
Also of the same mind befair, ground isnt the answer here or the position he raced in, or any of the other excuses
Just wasn’t at the races today, i was surprised he didnt bleed in the post race checkup, if nothing comes of it, hed be
One ill be laying nto“Can’t accept it was the ground; he looked beaten after 2 fences ”
Agree Befair. Just watched the race back and he looked like a horse who did not fancy it from the word Go. I would be nervous about backing him after that.
There was a poster here last year named shipitholabola who was very hostile to Shishkin and questioned his temperament. His abrasive manner got him banned but I suppose we have to ask (through gritted teeth) if maybe he had a point after all”?
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Good point CAS.
“Temperament” is often a topic restricted to the worst temperament-AL horses. Whenever temperament is mentioned regarding a good horse we get a lot of flak. But in truth all horses have idiosyncrasies, of how they like to race or be in a certain position. In the wild, horses are pack animals, some are natural leaders, some track the pace, some like to be in the middle of the pack and some right at the back. Even the great Desert Orchid had to race prominently. Ruby Walsh pointed out that the unbeaten mare Honeysuckle has her foibles. Always lining up on the outer… It is not unusual for those of otherwise good temperament to have things they like and don’t like and once in a bad mood it’s incredibly difficult to get them out of it.. eg Some are claustrophobic (or as good as). Not liking being surrounded by other horses.As I said earlier, if nothing is physically wrong with Shishkin it may be something to do with positioning. Shishkin usually races prominently or track pace and probably important every one of the 7 runners in today’s race usual style was racing fairly prominently too… And obviously not all 7 runners can race prominently. Shishkin was slowly away and with others wanting a prominent position couldn’t get his favoured spot. Instead in amongst horses on the inner early and didn’t appear to like it. NDB will probably make sure he’s on the outer at the start of future races.
ie Very possible a horse who usually races prominently or tracks pace in small fields is used to plenty of room, Shishkin didn’t like being more or less surrounded and this affected his mood. As Ruby pointed out in his analysis, noticeable NDB tried to make a move to the outer but other horses were in his way.
I’d have said back trouble if it wasn’t for the fact he was being pushed along even before he jumped a fence. Suppose it is possible (I think Green’ mentioned) he swallowed a piece of turf (but rare). Doubt it’s a wind problem either. Am no expert but I believe Wind only affects horses when under pressure… And if it were – as they said – purely ground, would it really have manifested itself in just a few strides? And burting blood vessels is (I’d have thought) an under pressure thing too, not after a few strides.
The thing that is different to pretty much all his previous races imo seems to be positioning.
Value Is EverythingAgree Ginger. The only other thing to throw into the mix is: Did the Ascot race leave a mark on him? He had to dig very deep to win.
I suppose the counter argument is Energumene ran at Ascot as well and was clearly in good form today but horses react in different ways.
It is all supposition to an extent and we will not really know how Shishkin is until he runs again. I hope he bounces back because I always thought he had the potential to be seriously top class but I could not possibly back him next time after that display. His whole demeanour did not look right.
Agree with the comments above; I can’t have it that a horse’s of Shishkin’s ability would be struggling so early on even if the ground didn’t favour him.
Let’s hope he bounces back from whatever physical or mental issue was affecting him today.
Again CAS, if Shishkin was not over Ascot it would’ve manifested itself in the last few furlongs, not the first few.
Value Is EverythingYou’re right Ginger- bleeding happens under pressure or at least takes a little time to build up; “broke a blood vessel” is a misnomer- it’s not an all or nothing event as it’s lots of little capillaries not one big vessel.
The positional thing might be it; and some horses hate the rain more than others (not just the ground- the rain). Nicky has a covered ring for trot/slow canter work but Mullins’ horses and work riders have to get on with their work in the rain.
There must be some physical things that cause inexplicable off days too. I used to do cross country running in school and very occasionally I’d have days when I’d feel absolutely fine mentally and physically all morning and on the start line…then get running only to discover within 50 yards that somebody had taken the batteries out. My stewards’ report for those days would have read “never travelling, trainer could offer no explanation for the performance”. I never did work out why.
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