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Oh come on Ginge mate are you getting enough sleep?. Like the current owner talking about taking on Big Bucks you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel now.
Think about what you are saying. Celestial Halo was a very experienced horse going into Punjabi’s Champion Hurdle having had at least twice as many runs as Binocular. Plus Binocular should have and would have won but for a terrible decision by AP. One he blames himself for I should add.
The form was turned on it’s head a year later between avery much improved Binocular and Celestail Halo by a massive 12 lengths.
The chances of Celestial Halo beating Binocular in the Champion Hurdle again must be next to zero and Binocular himslef will be lucky if he holds on to his crown. Hurricxane Fly? Peddlar’s Cross? Dunguib? Khyber Kim? Menoraqh all look better propositions and he’d neeed to improve a stone on his best form to get placed. He’d be 300/1 just to turn up.
If that wasn’t the case mate he would never have seen a fence.
I can imagine him being yours and you got Ruby to ride him. He’d get off him in the unsaddling enclosure and murmer "bloody waste of time that was" and ignore you for the rest of the day
I do agree with you about him having speed but don’t forget he was racing against 2 hold up horses that day the best of which was in no hurry to pass him. That factor very often makes a horse look a tad faster than he actually is.
That Champion Hurdle 2nd fooled a lot of people into thinking he was better than he is IMO. The speed you talk of has come back to haunt him. He’s too slowfor a Champion Hurdle but fast enough to suggest he won’t get 3 miles in atop race.
Never easy to say what one should do without being close to the horse but someone mentioned running him on the flat. which makes me think Twice Over Henry Cecil.
But you tell PN I’m keeping out of it
We seem to be in a fair amount of agreement Fist.
I don’t think Celestial Halo is good enough to beat Binocular, Peddler’s Cross or for that matter Hurricane Fly, Solwhit or Khyber Kim if they are at their best. However, there must be quite a doubt whether all of those will make it to Cheltenham in top order. Also Showed at Wincanton he’s got enough pace for 2 miles.
Agreed, there must be a sizable doubt as to Celestial Halo’s ability to get the 3m trip. With Big Buck’s being in the same ownership I see no point going that route.
Celestial Halo will need a strongly run race to be at his best in a Champion Hurdle. He’s capable of making the running so can ensure the pace is right.
There is however, a question about whether the horse is as good as he was.
Reet,
What is the point in agreeing with the trainer all the time? If you want to get good value (don’t expect you to understand that word ), it is best to look out for times you disagree with connections. As their opinions are often taken as gospel by mug punters. Value Is EverythingCelestial Halo is a prime example of why the World Hurdle should be reduced to two miles-five.
The World Hurdle has seen three horse claim seven out of the last nine runnings of the race – Baracouda, Inglis Drever and Big Buck’s – who now looks to have an outstanding chance of winning a third.
On the other two occasions, Iris’s Gift beat Baracouda, and My Way De Solzen would be well beaten by Inglis Drever the following year after the three-time hero missed the previous renewal.
It’s hardly been the most competitive of events.
The Rynair Chase continues to grow in popularity and quality. In 2009, future Gold Cup winner, Imperial Commander, would defeat former Champion Chase hero, Voy Por Ustedes, in a thrilling finish.
It’s a contest designed for those who, with the exception of the aforementioned renewal, do not possess the necessary speed to win a Champion Chase, nor the stamina to be competitive in a Gold Cup.
It’s inclusion has not had a detrimental effect on either of the championship contests and the race was rightly elevated to Grade One status in 2008.
An eight furlong gap between two championship races is quite substantial and quality horses like Celestial Halo have very few opportunities to showcase their talents.
It’s quite possible that Celestial Halo’s stamina may not hold out over three miles, and much the same can be said about a quality horse like Zaynar, so wouldn’t it be a more competitive event if Big Buck’s met the pair over twenty one furlongs?
Stamina should be a celebrated attribute, but should it be at the expense of quality, competitive racing?
Didn’t really matter when the ‘stayers’ was just the warm up race for the Gold Cup [which is what it should still be imo].
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Don’t know why some assume CH wouldn’t stay 3m?
Showed no sign of stopping in a truly run St Leger, was being talked of as a World Hurdle prospect long before he ever ran in a Champion Hurdle, and was finishing best of all on his last run over Newbury’s 2m 4f – albeit off none to testing a pace.
Sure, they’re likely to keep him apart from Big Bucks, but I’d question that has anything to do with his lack of stamina.Ginger
Reet,
What is the point in agreeing with the trainer all the time? If you want to get good value (don’t expect you to understand that word ), it is best to look out for times you disagree with connections. As their opinions are often taken as gospel by mug punters. Would this be your idea of me pursuing a vendetta, Ginger?
Couldn’t disagree with you more Bosranic – the winners of the Rynair as a Grade 2 did not merit its promotion and it has definately weakened the fields of both the QMCC and CGC.
In my eyes The Rynair epitomises the dilution of the Cheltenam Festival.
Reet,
I suppose ought to make allowances for you not understanding my words.
I don’t mind you having a different opinion to me, enjoy a robust discussion. Just try not to twist what I write to mean something it does not.Value Is EverythingResults of the Ryanair do not justify the downgrading of the Gold Cup and Queen Mother. So very few of those taking part in the Ryanair could not enhance either of the other two.
Subsequent Gold Cup winner Imperial Commander beat Voy Por Ustaedes who’d won the Queen Mother. The two beating Schindler’s Hunt who’d chased home Voy Por, fourth in the previous year’s 2 miler.
Winner of the RSA over 3 miles, Alberta’s Run should have enhanced the Gold Cup.
We’ve been spoilt in recent years with such great horses as Kauto Star, Master Minded and Denman. Without the brave placing of Twister, we would not have had the pleasure of seeing IC take on KS and D. In any normal quality year, the Ryanair just enables the best horses to avoid each other. Voy Por Ustedes was (at the time) the second best 2 mile chaser. Yet connections decided it was easier against Imperial Commander than once again taking on Master Minded.
It is quite a bit easier to be placed in the two big races than it once was, because of the Ryanair.
Value Is EverythingWhen you look at the potential field for the Ryanair next March, I find it hard to see how the majority of them could reach the frame if entered for either the Champion Chase, or Gold Cup.
Long Run
(Gold Cup) : Appeared not to stay in the RSA last year and jumping would be a concern over minimum trip. Hard to envisage him having the necessary pace, regardless. The World Hurdle has even been mooted as a possible alternative to the Gold Cup.
Albertas Run
(Gold Cup) : Has won three times since his RSA triumph in 2008. These victories have come over nineteen, twenty and twenty-one furlongs. Was beaten 48L by Kauto Star in the Gold Cup the following year, despite finishing second in the King George. Would struggle to stay the extended three miles-two.
Mad Max
(Champion Chase / Gold Cup) : The Ryanair has already been chosen as his long term target. Trainer has doubts about how far he will stay. Reversed Arkle form with Somersby over two miles-four in Manifesto.
Somersby
(Champion Chase / Gold Cup) : Will be campaigned over two miles this season after trainer stated he could be a Gold Cup horse. Lacked the gears to beat Sizing Europe in the Arkle last season and trainer has already said that the Ryanair is a more likely target. That horse has since acquitted himself with credit over three miles.
Planet Of Sound
(Gold Cup) : Arkle third in 2008, but has excelled over staying trip. Punchestown Gold Cup win over extended three miles was followed by fine third in Betfair Chase on seasonal bow. May lack stamina over extended three miles-two.
Sizing Europe
(Champion Chase / Gold Cup) : Arkle hero last year, but appeared to stay three miles at Down Royal. May be hard pressed to stay Gold Cup trip around Cheltenham. You would think that two miles-five around Cheltenham would be ideal.
Weird Al
(Gold Cup) : Travelled as well as anything in the Hennessy before tiring late on. Arguably failed to stay the trip and clearly lacks the pace to be a contender for the Champion Chase. Another who would be ideally suited to the demands of the Ryanair.
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When you add the likes of
Barbers Shop
(King George third, but failed to stay in Gold Cup),
Poquelin
,
Deep Purple
and
Little Josh
tothe list, the Ryanair has the potential to be a high quality renewal and with the exception of Somersby and Sizing Europe, the rest would merely be making up the numbers in either the Champion Chase or Gold Cup.
The Ryanair Chase not only gives an opportunity to those who lack the necessary attributes to compete in either of the aforementioned championship races, it also serves as a bridge to younger / unexposed horses who could develop into Gold Cup candidates.
The elevation of the Ryanair to Grade 1 status in an attempt to justify the 4 day festival was a shameful decision. At least when it was a Grade 2 (2005-2007) the Grade 1 winners in the field would have to concede weight so it encouraged trainers to go for the established races like the Champion Chase and the Gold Cup. I don’t see how anyone can say that it has not devalued those two races in recent years. Imperial Commander could possibly be going for his third Gold Cup in a row next March if it wasn’t for the Ryanair – who knows?
This new 2m5 novice chase will have the same effect on the Arkle and the Sun Alliance, particularly the latter owing to its reputation as a gruelling, hard race on a young horse. It’s going to be a Grade 2 but we all know it won’t be long before it’s elevated to Grade 1 status and becomes a sort of Ryanair for novices.
Getting back to the original topic, if Celestial Halo doesn’t stay 3 miles, so what? There doesn’t have to be a race at Cheltenham for every horse. If Nicholls doesn’t think he has the pace for 2 miles and he doesn’t think he’ll stay 3 then send him to Liverpool for the Grade 1 there and skip Cheltenham altogether.
The season shouldn’t revolve around one meeting. I think the obsession with Cheltenham (as much as I love the meeting myself) is damaging NH. This craic of every race throughout the winter becoming a ‘Cheltenham trial’ is beginning to grate. It’s not the way I remembered it growing up. Having horses half-fit for every race before March (because they don’t want to leave the big race behind them!) and not running a horse for nearly four months from the end of November to mid-March (as will be the case with Denman this season if Nicholls is to be believed) is taking things too far.
The Ryanair Chase not only gives an opportunity to those who lack the necessary attributes to compete in either of the aforementioned championship races, it also serves as a bridge to younger / unexposed horses who could develop into Gold Cup candidates.
Wasn’t that what the old Cathcart was for?
They should have never done away with that race.
The elevation of the Ryanair to Grade 1 status in an attempt to justify the 4 day festival was a shameful decision. At least when it was a Grade 2 (2005-2007) the Grade 1 winners in the field would have to concede weight so it encouraged trainers to go for the established races like the Champion Chase and the Gold Cup. I don’t see how anyone can say that it has not devalued those two races in recent years. Imperial Commander could possibly be going for his third Gold Cup in a row next March if it wasn’t for the Ryanair – who knows?
This new 2m5 novice chase will have the same effect on the Arkle and the Sun Alliance, particularly the latter owing to its reputation as a gruelling, hard race on a young horse. It’s going to be a Grade 2 but we all know it won’t be long before it’s elevated to Grade 1 status and becomes a sort of Ryanair for novices.
Getting back to the original topic, if Celestial Halo doesn’t stay 3 miles, so what? There doesn’t have to be a race at Cheltenham for every horse. If Nicholls doesn’t think he has the pace for 2 miles and he doesn’t think he’ll stay 3 then send him to Liverpool for the Grade 1 there and skip Cheltenham altogether.
The season shouldn’t revolve around one meeting. I think the obsession with Cheltenham (as much as I love the meeting myself) is damaging NH. This craic of every race throughout the winter becoming a ‘Cheltenham trial’ is beginning to grate. It’s not the way I remembered it growing up. Having horses half-fit for every race before March (because they don’t want to leave the big race behind them!) and not running a horse for nearly four months from the end of November to mid-March (as will be the case with Denman this season if Nicholls is to be believed) is taking things too far.
I completely agree with everything you’ve said there. In fact I’d go further in saying that the Cheltenham festival has declined with the four day format.
As for Celestial Halo I think the horse has gone, possibly fallen out of love with the game, I wouldn’t back him to win any race now.
When you look at the potential field for the Ryanair next March, I find it hard to see how the majority of them could reach the frame if entered for either the Champion Chase, or Gold Cup.
Long Run
(Gold Cup) : Appeared not to stay in the RSA last year and jumping would be a concern over minimum trip. Hard to envisage him having the necessary pace, regardless. The World Hurdle has even been mooted as a possible alternative to the Gold Cup.
Long Run is bred to get the Gold Cup trip. Half-sister Liberthine fifth in Grand National and sire Cadoudal is one of the best stamina influences in the stud book. Only Long Run’s keenness makes him a doubtful stayer and that could be remedied with a professional jockey.
Albertas Run
(Gold Cup) : Has won three times since his RSA triumph in 2008. These victories have come over nineteen, twenty and twenty-one furlongs. Was beaten 48L by Kauto Star in the Gold Cup the following year, despite finishing second in the King George. Would struggle to stay the extended three miles-two.
Albertas Run has never been ridden in the correct way over 3m+. If you watch Albertas Run in any of his recent wins, AP is at pains to race prominently and keep him away from other horses. Also, in those wins he’s usually been pushed along before many rivals, suggesting he’d get considerably further. Not had much racing at 3m+ since his novice year to show what he can do.
Mad Max
(Champion Chase / Gold Cup) : The Ryanair has already been chosen as his long term target. Trainer has doubts about how far he will stay. Reversed Arkle form with Somersby over two miles-four in Manifesto.
Had Mad Max made an almighty blunder two out in the Arkle would’ve been a lot closer. Going well at the time. He’s certainly capable of top class form at 2 miles.
Somersby
(Champion Chase / Gold Cup) : Will be campaigned over two miles this season after trainer stated he could be a Gold Cup horse. Lacked the gears to beat Sizing Europe in the Arkle last season and trainer has already said that the Ryanair is a more likely target. That horse has since acquitted himself with credit over three miles.
By the trainers own admission, Somersby could be be a Gold Cup horse. Also capable of giving the Arkle winner a race at 2 miles.
Planet Of Sound
(Gold Cup) : Arkle third in 2008, but has excelled over staying trip. Punchestown Gold Cup win over extended three miles was followed by fine third in Betfair Chase on seasonal bow. May lack stamina over extended three miles-two.
Planet Of Sound was staying on in the Betfair, well enough to give him a chance to stay the Gold Cup trip.
Sizing Europe
(Champion Chase / Gold Cup) : Arkle hero last year, but appeared to stay three miles at Down Royal. May be hard pressed to stay Gold Cup trip around Cheltenham. You would think that two miles-five around Cheltenham would be ideal.
Sizing Europe was always travelling well in the Arkle. He has the speed for a Champion Chase; even though the trainer wants to go for a Gold Cup.
Weird Al
(Gold Cup) : Travelled as well as anything in the Hennessy before tiring late on. Arguably failed to stay the trip and clearly lacks the pace to be a contender for the Champion Chase. Another who would be ideally suited to the demands of the Ryanair.
You think Weird Al travelled well Bos? Reasonably may be. Never thought he was going well enough to challenge. Possibly bounced, had hard race at Carlisle. Showed he stays 3m1f very well on soft ground in the Towton Novices last year. Hennessey also his first in a big field. he will stay alright.
———————————————————
When you add the likes of
Barbers Shop
(King George third, but failed to stay in Gold Cup),
Poquelin
,
Deep Purple
and
Little Josh
tothe list, the Ryanair has the potential to be a high quality renewal and with the exception of Somersby and Sizing Europe, the rest would merely be making up the numbers in either the Champion Chase or Gold Cup.
Barbers Shop ran right up to his best in both the Hennessey and Gold Cup, true he did not find much off the bridle, but never does at any trip. He should join the corgies.
Deep Purple has also proven he stays 3m1f in the Charlie Hall.
Poquelin and Little Josh may not stay 3m2f110y or have the speed for 2 miles. But they’ve both enhanced top class handicaps at Cheltenham. No reason why they can’t do so again. As well as taking horses away from the two big races, the Ryanair has also reduced the quality of what is now the Byrne Group Plate 2m5f handicap.The Ryanair Chase not only gives an opportunity to those who lack the necessary attributes to compete in either of the aforementioned championship races, it also serves as a bridge to younger / unexposed horses who could develop into Gold Cup candidates.
The old Cathcart would give a good opportunity to those who "lack experience" too.
The Gold Cup itself is a good race for those "who could develop in to Gold Cup candidates".Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
Decent run today, I thought, and jumped quite well for a horse returning from fencing. Was ridden none too aggresively on his return, and though outsped in the closing stages, looks good to pick up something decent before the end of the season.
Decent run today, I thought, and jumped quite well for a horse returning from fencing. Was ridden none too aggresively on his return, and though outsped in the closing stages, looks good to pick up something decent before the end of the season.
I personally thought it was an excellent return to hurdles, and exactly what the horse needed.
Paul Nicholls seemed impressed and encouraged by what he saw too and stated that Celestial Halo will be campaigned over the longer distance this season.
A sound effort, but I doubt he has sufficient stamina to be a threat in the World Hurdle over three miles.
Like many, he’s stuck between a rock and a hard place.
- Total Posts 17716
Decent run today, I thought, and jumped quite well for a horse returning from fencing. Was ridden none too aggresively on his return, and though outsped in the closing stages, looks good to pick up something decent before the end of the season.
Given that Harry Skelton will make much more use of him, we might see just how far ‘past it’ Celestial Halo is tomorrow.
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