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For quite a few years now Godolphin have been the lead buyers at the sales around the world. Where have all those horses gone to be trained? In fact, where have they gone, period?
There could just be a
better
2yo than Casamento carrying Sheikh Mohammed’s colours in Ireland.
This afternoon Dubai Prince (trained by Weld) will start hot favourite in the Group 3 Killavullan Stakes at Leopardstown. As he beat Seville on his debut by further than the 3/4 length that Casamento beat the same horse on Saturday, and as improvement is clearly expected, no surprise if this beautifully bred Shamardal colt turns out to be the smarter of Sheikh Mohammed’s Irish pair.
Probably didn’t beat much but that was impressive.
I think he could emulate DK’s last winner of the race (Grey Swallow) and land the Derby at the Curragh next year.
How disappointing is it that these horse’s are being moved to that operation.
Really could have been a great crop of non-ballydoyle irish 2yr olds this year.
Shame
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… or will Dubai Prince now be on the Dubai plane with Casamento?
Impressive indeed. I very much like the look of this horse, who looks to have more tactical speed even than Grey Swallow. Next to Frankel, I’d say that was the most impressive 2yo we’ve seen out, at least with a view to the 2111 classics.
at least with a view to the 2111 classics.
That’s certainly a long-term view you’re taking there Pinza!
wl
I’m not talking of the millions of poundsworth of new horses he gets to train each year (certainly a lot more than his counterparts, anyway) but of established high class horses that he receives year after year, that invariably regress when in his care. Horses like:
Delegator
Cavalryman
Cutlass Bay
& Kingsfort
all proper gp1 horses passed into his care this season, certainly better quality than any other stable could expect, yet he has still to win much more than a bag of crisps with since their arrival.I know nothing about training horses so I couldn’t possibly debate the reasons for these horses not to thrive under Suroor. Could be he’s still examining them and classifying them according to his training methods, but again it’s just an assumption made by a dummy.
Horses thrive and degrade all the time, at any trainer’s care.
So then again my question, why is it necessarily a bad thing for Casamento to go under Suroor?- Total Posts 17716
That’s certainly a long-term view you’re taking there Pinza!
Yes. I’m fully intending to attend that year’s Derby, which will doubtless be (like everything else) at Ascot (or possibly Cheltenham!)
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Even if reasons can be found to excuse Suroor’s apparent failure with the aforementioned quartet, it’s much harder to defend his role in the demise of the likes of Shamardal, Papineau, Doyen, Carry On Katie, Discreet Cat, Bull Run, Fast Company, Il Warrd, Ibn Khaldun and however many other horses that either failed to go on or were ruined after being acquired from elsewhere.
The amount of equine talent that he’s been unable to harness (either at all or for an appreciable amount of time) is frightening.
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Delegator achieved his highest official rating (121) under Suroor, not Meehan. That rating has been sustained.
Cavalryman and Cutlass Bay were both cunningly campaigned by Fabre to look better than they probably were; and in the case of the former, he’s only just getting back to his mid-season 3yo form – it’s possible that Fabre bottomed both of them in getting the results he did.
Kingsfort has been significantly injured and clearly needed his comeback run, which was full of promise.
All in all, therefore, your little list doesn’t do much to promote a negative notion about Suroor’s ability.
Delegator achieved his rating of 121 in the care of Brian Meehan for his 2nd in the SJP, it is currently 118, and falling.
Cavalryman was ‘cunningly campaigned’ to win a French classic, a gp2, and finish 3rd in the Arc in his last 3 races for A Fabre, he has since had 8 runs, mustering no better than 3rd place.
Cutlass Bay was similarly ‘cunningly campaigned’ to win all his 5 races for Fabre including 2 gp2’s and a gp1. The best he has managed since moving to Suroor is 2nd in a Turkish gp2. (Andre Fabre is hardly famous for ‘bottoming horses’ out either).
Gp1 National Stakes winner Kingsfort returned to be beaten 7l in a Redcar listed race, achieving an RPR of 85, that ‘promise’ has at least 30lbs to find to get near the form he showed for Kevin Prendergast.
My ‘little list’ clearly had more thought behind it than your response.It shouldn’t be difficult to keep this horse progressing. Halford is gentle and gradual with his horses. Casamento’s fitness was gradually built up on a very large circular sand (what we in Ireland call Wexford sand)gallop at a gentle canter. The morning routine finished with a swinging gallop up a woodchip gallop that rises about 4.25 furlongs then turns right and levels off for about .75 of a furlong.
The horse was taken away a few times to work up Walsh’s hill on the Curragh starting with a swinging gallop then winding up to finish off at near full pace. It was a simple routine and the horse was never stressed. All Godolphin have to do is keep it simple and don’t ask the horse to prove anything to them at home. There is a concern that the transort to and from Dubai, change of climate and routine will have a detrimental effect however.Even if reasons can be found to excuse Suroor’s apparent failure with the aforementioned quartet, it’s much harder to defend his role in the demise of the likes of Shamardal, Papineau, Doyen, Carry On Katie, Discreet Cat, Bull Run, Fast Company, Il Warrd, Ibn Khaldun and however many other horses that either failed to go on or were ruined after being acquired from elsewhere.
The amount of equine talent that he’s been unable to harness (either at all or for an appreciable amount of time) is frightening.
Demise of Shamardal?
If you call winning the French Guineas, French Derby and St James Palace a demise then you clearly set the bar high.
Carry on Katie ran to within a lb of her best 2yo form after transfer to bin Suroor. Doyen won the King George in a lifetime best in his care. Fast Company never raced after 2yrs due to injury. Discreet Cat was trained by him in name only but even so, when he was good he was outstanding. Il Warrd recorded several better efforts for bin Suroor than he did for Marcus Tregoning. He won the Racing Post Trophy with Ibn Khaldun and the Ascot Gold Cup with Papineau. I’ll give you the fragile Bull Run, though.
It would be interesting to compare the record of horses who have transferred out of his care (to Mark Johnston for example, and several Dubai based trainers) and see if the stats back up general improvement in such circumstances.
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Ratings
104 – Motivator 2004
100 – High Chaparral 2001
98 – Casamento 2010
98 – Ibn Khaldun 2007
97 – Palace Episode 2005
96 – Crowded House 2008
96 – Brian Boru 2002
95 – Authorized* 2006
94 – St Nicholas Abbey 2009
91 – American Post 2003
87 – Dilshaan 2000Par Performance
10.02 – Motivator 2004
6.50 – High Chaparral 2001
4.50 – Casamento 2010
4.05 – Ibn Khaldun 2007
3.81 – Palace Episode 2005
2.23 – Crowded House 2008
2.15 – Brian Boru 2002
1.78 – Authorized* 2006
0.45 – St Nicholas Abbey 2009
-2.83 – American Post 2003
-6.70 – Dilshaan 2000* RPT held at Newbury.
A bit more impressive from Casamento than I thought in truth and those that have backed him for Guineas may be onto a good bit of value.
One slight question though regards to the derby is if we take the ground conditions for the last 10 years in the results it comes out a little something like this;
3.80 – Casamento
3.29 – Ibn Khaldun
2.51 – American Post
1.91 – St Nicholas Abbey
1.55 – Crowded House
-1.72 – Motivator
-4.12 – Dilshaan
-4.15 – Palace Episode
-4.77 – Brian Boru
-4.90 – High Chaparral
-5.31 – AuthorizedASK yourself this, how much of a Derby(stamina) indicator is the Racing Post Trophy on firm ground than it is on soft ground?
FIRM Ground – Casamento, Ibn Khaldun
GDFM Ground – American Post, St Nicholas Abbey
GODD Ground – Crowded House
GDSFT Ground – Motivator
SOFT Ground – Dilshaan, Palace Episode, Brian Boru, High Chaparral, Authorized.MRW.
Very interesting Mr. Wilson. Whatever it all means.In a sentence or two at the most perhaps you could tell me the conclusions to draw from the numbers.
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My ‘little list’ clearly had more thought behind it than your response.
Not so, sir. You’ve marshalled some facts to fit your hypothesis, that’s all: and they do bear a kinder interpretation.
Do you think Kingsfort was not injured this season? The Redcar race was a sensible comeback option.
That 121 for Delegator was
maintained
in the QE2 (where according to some judges he surpassed the mark) so Suroor did not cause a decline: once again, the horse has coped with injuries this season.
Your remarks on Cavalryman and Cutlass Bay are – like mine on those two horses – fair opinion, interpretations of rating declines which can be looked at in at least two ways.
In short, your quartet are do not make good prosecuting material if you are out to diss Suroor, whatever your reason for doing so.
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I see that it is now official (from Mr Weld) that
Dubai Prince
goes to Dubai and Godolphin. So let’s see how this latest test case gets on….
- Total Posts 17716
My ‘little list’ clearly had more thought behind it than your response.
Not so, sir. You’ve marshalled some facts to fit your hypothesis, that’s all: and they do bear a kinder interpretation.
Do you think Kingsfort was not injured this season? The Redcar race was a sensible comeback option.
That 121 for Delegator was
maintained
in the QE2 (where according to some judges he surpassed the mark) so Suroor did not cause a decline: once again, the horse has coped with injuries this season.
Your remarks on Cavalryman and Cutlass Bay are – like mine on those two horses – fair opinion, interpretations of rating declines which can be looked at in at least two ways.
In short, your quartet are do not make good prosecuting material if you are out to diss Suroor, whatever your reason for doing so.
You’re right, of course, my hypothesis has the veracity of being based on facts, unlike your defence which was a mishmash of innuendo and supposition.
The 4 horses I highlighted are merely the proven gp1 performers transferred to SBS for this season that have disappointed since. They are only the tip of the iceberg, as there are plenty of similar at lower levels. Not only this season, but over quite a few years, there have been dozens (if not hundreds) of established quality horses moved in from other yards – certainly more than any other trainer could ever aspire to – for too many to either disappoint, be layed off through injury, or not run at all.
Thereason
for my post was to express disquiet at a training regime which is, at least, questionable; a view seemingly not wholly unsupported by the number of times it has been raised by others on this forum.
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