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Where next for Camelot ? Does anyone else think be no harm to stick him back to a mile ?
At one time the stable were quoted as "being bullish" regarding his four year old career. After today’s defeat O’Brien was keen to point out how much the operation procedure takes out of a horse. It sounds like he’s had too many excuses to me.
When you get right down to it his only really good win was in the Derby and only one other win came out of that race afterwards, which was John Gosden’s Thoughtworthy. Runner up Main Sequence has looked nothing special this season so far and it looks like he won a poor Derby. The Irish Derby was a load of rubbish and the best horses didn’t make it to The Arc for a race where Camelot was a ridiculous 2/1 Favourite. His comeback this season was workmanlike at best and when you look at Camelot’s career, he has never gone off bigger than that 2/1 price and has been odds on seven times, sometimes prohibitively so.
For me the hype hasn’t been matched in performance and, having started off at a mile aged two, you would not think he’s crying out to be dropped in trip. I think he would struggle to cope with Farhh for example in the older ranks and the younger Magician and Dawn Approach would surely see him off at the shorter trip.
Maybe an underlying problem will surface and he’ll join Frankel at stud for a more enjoyable contest to see who’s the Daddy daddy.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
He still looked quite round yesterday, which of course could be due to the operation. He certainly looked better than his first race, but not the horse I saw last year. In contrast, Al Kazeem did look ready. What was effectively a match race the visual impression as both went past me was of two very good horses.
The question is how much more can he push him. In the past it has taken O’Brien a few with his older Montjeu’s to get them to their peak. I expect Camelot to improve again and if not I would hope they retire him.
Camelot ran well enough yesterday. He’s just not as good as some people thought. Quality of performance in the 2000 Guineas rarely good enough to win it. Second French Fifteen beaten in 4 races since and third Hermival could not win a poor St James Palace. Derby win looked impressive but form hasn’t worked out. Main Sequence is not true Group 1 class and the Lanigan horse only scraped home for second from Astrology. Irish Derby 2 length second Born To Sea beaten a long way in a Group 2 next time. Encke may or may not have been pumped up; but even so taking the Godolphin horse out – a 3 length beating of Michelangelo is not top notch. I’ll be generous and leave out the Arc. Nor was I impressed with a 1 3/4 length beating of his pacemaker first time out.
Camelot’s form entitles him to win Group 1 races, but he’s not the Top Class horse connections make out. Not even the best middle-distance horse at Ballydoyle.
Value Is EverythingToo early to write him off for me. Yeats, Fame + Glory and St Nicholas Abbey have all run shockers in the past when long odds on but trainer comments are a worry.
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I think Steve and Ginger have it spot on. That’s about as good as he is and they’ll do well to win another Group 1 with him imo. It wouldn’t surprise if he’s retired sooner rather than later.
On another note, how poor is it that the Tattersalls Gold Cup was pretty much a 2 horse race? There’s only been 5 or 6 runners in it the past few years and they have generally been walkovers for Ballydoyle.
I think Steve and Ginger have it spot on. That’s about as good as he is and they’ll do well to win another Group 1 with him imo. It wouldn’t surprise if he’s retired sooner rather than later.
On another note, how poor is it that the Tattersalls Gold Cup was pretty much a 2 horse race? There’s only been 5 or 6 runners in it the past few years and they have generally been walkovers for Ballydoyle.
Indeed. I think it was Bachelleors Hall who explained to me previously how races were awarded their Pattern status. From memory it was based on the average OR of the 1st 4 over a certain amount of years or something similar? I can’t remember exactly.
Surely the Tatts Gold Cup’s Group 1 status must be under threat?
I didn’t see the race, but I think we have to give him another chance yet. A long lay off after colic surgery, he could have needed the race. Of course he may have been beaten by an improving sort, who didn’t get the chance to meet him last year.
It is worth remembering that had he been a Derby winner from the 70s, 60s,50s or earlier he would be in a can of dog meat now. So we are lucky to have him racing at all.He is coming back off a problem that was significant and life-threatening. The winner may be a special horse himself so I wouldn’t be writing Camelot off quite yet.
He is coming back off a problem that was significant and life-threatening. The winner may be a special horse himself so I wouldn’t be writing Camelot off quite yet.
I might have been tempted to buy into that if he had not been such a hot favourite yesterday. Despite all his problems defeat was not envisaged against a horse who has had his own, and longer, layoff through injury. Other than the Derby, I challenge anyone to show where Camelot looked anything special last season.
Getting back to the original question, does anyone think Camelot would be any better dropped to a mile?
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
A glimpse of the future:-
Members of the Camelot fan club celebrate as their hero finally nets The Arc De Triomphe:-
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/scorrie57/skeletons_zps4cd0a281.jpg
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
A glimpse of the future:-
Members of the Camelot fan club celebrate as their hero finally nets The Arc De Triomphe:-
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/scorrie57/skeletons_zps4cd0a281.jpg
Presume thats Big John M in the middle?
To answer the original question I would actually think about stepping him back UP in trip. Like Steve I thought his most impressive performance was the Derby. Ok so perhaps he didn’t quite stay the Leger distance but he had no problems with a mile and a half. He looked like he was done for a turn of foot yesterday by a quicker horse who, lets not forget, has had his share of injuries as well. I could not see Camelot winning again at the top level over a mile.
When I look at this horse I can’t help but think that if connections had their time again they might have done things a bit differently with him. Aiden has been adamant that this has been the best horse he has ever trained but does his form really point to that? After he won the Derby it looked like he might well be but, since then, his form has really levelled off.
I think the Irish Derby might have been a bad idea on that ground. He really struggled that day and I think the race took a hell of a lot out of him. The Arc was an afterthought and, again, was it really wise running him again on that ground? They have been playing catch up trying out plan B’s because plan A didn’t work but can we honestly say that his route has been in the best interests of the horse?
As for coming back from the operation, well fair enough it must have taken something out of him but he didn’t actually miss any racing because of it. His last run was the Arc and his first this season the Mooresbridge so his lay off was no longer than any other horses. With such a valuable commodity they surely would not be running him if he wasn’t right.
If I am honest I think they have made a bit of a pigs ear out of the latter part of his career and it goes to show that even these great horses are not machines that can run anywhere and over any trip.
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I am beginning to think that Joseph(son) John(supremo) Smithy family need all to get out of the way and let Aidan train the horses.How can he train with everyone else making the racing decisions? Since Joseph started(Joseph said this and Joseph said that) to make the decisions things are going in every direction.How many jockeys apart from Lester have a clue about horses? Vincent interviewed his jockeys separately and never said what they told him, to each other.Now Big John is jumping into the parade telling Aidan what to do. Trainers don’t need that.(The same with Jim Bolger)Aidan has four entries in the Derby this year.If we can go on past performance of Aidan none are good enough to win the Derby.Now they are throwing Magician into the mix.Utter confusion.
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