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my last word
i recall  as i saw most the eclipse races mentioned  and timeform also rate  opera house and  halling as better  and grandera has not yet  achieved anything comparable. medicean  may also have improved enough to reconfirm the form  so out of the  the 11 victories mentioned as it stands grandera  using timeform ratings would only have a chance of beating the worst 2 winners.
  which it seems  that godophin would agree with  by not targeting  the european grp 1s  perhaps  they should sack crisford  and employ you  as u seems to make far more out of the race than the owners them selves
anyhow i think you might agree enough has been said on the subject and we shall see next november the value of the form and how highly (or not) grandera is rated
(Edited by prince regent at 8:49 pm on May 14, 2002)
Grandera will not run at Royal Ascot (like expected) …. <br>Simon Crisford : "We’ll probably hold Grandera back forthe second half of the season – he or Sakhee may be Eclipse types. What it means is missing Royal Ascot with a long term view in mind."
But second placed horse (Paolini) from the Singapore Airlines International Race will run at Royal Ascot in the Prince of Wales’s Stakes over 1m2f.
:pimp:
Best Of The Bests may be Godolphin’s main runner in the Prince Of Wales’ Stakes at Royal Ascot. I can imagine Grandera going for the Eclipse rather than Sakhee at the moment.
Godolphin’s 3yos should run well at Epsom – there is unusual confidence behind their runners this year (well with a Guineas winner it’s hard not to excpect a good run from Kazzia).
DM and Mesh – are you not concerned with the woeful form of the Godolphin stable??<br>
Rory- you have a point. A couple of weeks ago they were doing quite well and now they have dipped a bit. Shami was disappointing yesterday although he went off far roo fast, and Loder’s horses are running like blackpool beach animals if you compare them with Loder’s form a year ago.
Hopefully with Kazzia being one of their best 3yos it can turn around a bit. I think we should be looking out for Johnston’s horses as the main danger perhaps.
Maybe some people think I have blue glasses…..but they are black :cool:
But letâ€ÂÂ
dubaimillennium – Wasn’t it a Godolphin 1-3 in the World Cup? Sakhee came 3rd not 2nd.
Even so, Godolphin started 2001 and arguably 2000 abysmally – this year they have some decent 3yos as well as older horses.
The blue boys may not dominate the 2yo-3yo division like Ballydoyle but I think it’s much better to have quality older horses. Godolphin raise the status of the older horse brigade and let’s hope other trainers follow. Coolmore is more flooded with stallions than Darley, but some of those were clearly rushed to stud too early and it will be a while before they make any impact with their progeny.
My glasses are not rose tinted, they’re blue tinted! Off up country tomorrow for Epsom to see the blue boys grab more G1 glory!:cool:
Hello Everyone, :wave:
are there still people how think that Grandera has not the Class to win a Group I Race in England :naughty:
:biggrin:
<br>Like i typed earlier DM, Grandera had to improve to win…and he improved! The form of the Prince of Wales isn’t too strong (given Banks Hill not staying and Indian Creek in second) but Grandera won going clear. It was an impressive performance.
I still think Grandera would have to be better to beat Fantastic Light or Giant’s Causeway or indeed the likes of Halling but i’ll tell you if i still think that when i’ve worked out the ratings for the race!
By the way, just to be a little more detailed. I don’t think the form of yesterday’s race is all that strong because Nayef has run below form (and isn’t a G1 horse anyway) and Banks Hill hasn’t stayed. Indian Creek has finished behind Nayef twice but overturned form yesterday. There was also a strong pace which helped the front two. The fact that Indian Creek’s best performance was winning the G3 Earl Of Sefton by a head suggests bad news for him (at G1 level) and those behind him if they continue to run below form.
But Grandera hammered them nonetheless. Let’s see if he can do it again and, if he can, we’ve got a real nice horse to watch! 10f is what he wants and a strong pace too (calling all pacemakers…) and he’s improving all the time. Shame it’s not James Fanshawe training him because he’s a good bloke but well done to Grandera and Godolphin.
Quote from Robgomm:<br>
Nayef has run below form (and isn’t a G1 horse anyway)
Nayef has won two Group Ones, one being at Newmarket last year beating dual Group One winner Tobougg. He also won the Group One in Dubai.<br>Nayef is very in-and-out and seems like a backend of the season horse.
The pace was decent in the race yesterday, and fast paces usually ensure that the form holds up. Basically Grandera was travelling the best, with Frankie taking a tug in behind Banks Hill and Nayef it seems a bit unbelievable. Banks Hill may not have trained on from 3-4. But it’s a bit too early to kncok the form.
You’re right about Indian Creek though – he’s a bit of an odd horse and he will have to win a Group One before I take him seriously (although don’t forget he was 3rd in the Champion Stakes behind Nayef and Tobougg).
(Edited by Meshaheer at 9:07 am on June 20, 2002)
Yes, Nayef is not the Superstar (or Horse of the Century etc.) like some people hailed him after his first two races. But he is a bloody good Racehorse and a real Group I performer.
This horse raced 4 times in Group I Races and won two of them and placed in the two other races. This horse won three Group III Races and raced to a PM of over 120 at several occasions. If this is not a Group I horse…what else is it? What do people except?
:pimp:
You have to look closely at that Champion stakes. It was a average renewal and i’d not call it a Group One.
1st NAYEF: Previously winning Group 3’s well enough.
2nd TOBOUGG: 3rd in an average Derby behind Galileo, the only real Group One horse in the race. 4th in a farce of an Eclipse with a fast pace meaning the front five finishing about a length apart. Then second in Hong Kong Cup where Hawkeye was behind him in fourth.
3rd INDIAN CREEK: Group 3 winner now and can not confidently be though of as a G1 horse.
4th HAWKEYE: Beaten in three Asian Group One’s (including when 8l’d behind Grandera). Not close to a G1 horse.
That Champion stakes was G2/G3 standard…G2 at best.
Dubai Sheema Classic
Another easy-to-knock G1. Helene Vitality ran the race of his life to finsih second and has been well beaten in Sha Tin Group One’s too many times for this Sheema Classic form to be solid.
Boreal was third. On soft ground he would beat Nayef over 12f. Boreal won a fair Coronation Cup and is a good horse on soft ground. The ground at Nad Al Sheba would not have suited him as well and he’s since improved.
Marienbard was fourth and gives the form a G2 look to it. He won a G2 at Newmarket with the weights in his favour and has since been hammered by Boreal in the Coronation Cup.
That Sheema Classic was a G2 on my reading of the form. Boreal is the bright spot and could run close in the King George if it rains.
Nayef has been put in his place in two G1’s since and although he is out of form at the moment, his earlier form suggests that he has a mountain to climb if he’s ever to compete with Sakhee, High Chaparral, Grandera and even Boreal. Nayef would have struggled against Fantastic Light and Galileo last year.
So Nayef is not a G1 horse on my reading of his form and his two G1 wins recieved a lower rating than Boreal’s Coronation Cup, meaning that Boreal has improved since and is probably a better horse on his going. I do think the Coronation Cup was more G2 than G1 but Boreal won very nicely.
Indian Creek was beaten by Nayef in the Champion stakes (g/s) and the Tatts Gold cup (sft) and it may be that the fast ground has helped him turn the form around.
As for the pace yesterday, i think it spoilt any chance Bach had as he had to use alot of energy trying to keep up with the pacemaker. Banks Hills and Nayef struggled to keep up they strong gallop they were going 2f out and Grandera went nicely by. Indian Creek picked up ground because he was suited by the pace.
Grandera finishing 5 clear of Indian Creek is pretty good. If Grandera is improving as we reckon he is, then it’s more than likely he’ll win another G1 next time out. But right now, i’m just being a little cautious (that’s my way i’m afraid).
Right now i’d say Grandera would beat Hawk Wing because he has loads of speed and lots of guts, he’s also won a G1 this year whilst Hawk Wing hasn’t. Grandera might have a different head position but i think he’s a battler. Hopefully he’ll go on to win another G1 next time (Eclipse?) and do you guys think he’ll be as good at 12f because he could be a Breeders Cup horse?
Ooops…i’ve gone on a bit here!
The Champion Stakes is hardly a race for "champions" anymore. Times have changed.
It’s all very well Newmarket bleating, but with the Breeders’ Cup falling so soon after the "Champions" meeting, something has to give – and I don’t see it being the American meeting.
robgomm, remittance man I agree with you that the Champion Stakes last year was not the best Champion Stakes we saw. And like I said he is no Superstar or anything else but a horse that won a Group I Race is England and another in Dubai and what placed in Group I Races in England and Ireland should be called a Group I Horse.
:pimp:
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