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Teenoso won as a 4yo.
Hurricane Run was also 4 having won the Irish Derby as did Montjeu.
Alamshar and St Jovite won both in the same year.
Dancing Brave never won a Derby.
I stand corrected EF! Isnt it funny how we think of DB as being a Derby winner – he so should have been!
As for the other two – did Andy say that just 3 year old Derby winners are not great KG horses?
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
People blamed Greville but the fact is that Dancing Brave lost the Derby where most come from behind horses do; in the first couple of furlongs. On the day Shahrastani proved to be an above average Derby Winner, his form tailed off after the Irish equivalent. Most people cannot except that Dancing Brave never acted on the course (the demands of Epsom are unique and probably the most complete examination of the thoroughbred) and to get as close as his did just shows how good he was.
People blamed Greville but the fact is that Dancing Brave lost the Derby where most come from behind horses do; in the first couple of furlongs.
For someone who talks a helluva lot of sense normally Eclipse…………You couldn’t be further from the truth with that belief!
GREVILLE F****D UP BIG TIME
,It is well recognised down in Pulborough that
Dancing Brave
should have won the 86 Derby,Greville knew he was on a racing certainty,the day before the race he is quoted as saying the horse was ‘Bombproof’ and that he could ride him however he wanted as he would win,he was 100% certain he’d get the trip standing on his head,everything would have gone to plan except Greville wanted to show off! Oh he did that alright! The worst ride I ever saw……..Until Mike Smith on
Zenyatta
came along!
But it does beg the question that if one can be dominant over a
range
of distances that he/she deserves special status. KF is probably right in that it probably does. Sea The Stars, Nashwan and Chief Singer are probably the three who stand out in my time racing, a trio who were champions over a range of distances. You could add Oh So Sharp to that list too. And of course, further back, Nijinsky and (just about) the Brigadier too. I’m sure I’ll have missed some.
Chief Singer
was really a Sprinter who had the rare talent to do the same over a mile,if you rate him so highly you have to say
El Gran Senor
was a better horse because as Ray was still cantering on the Chief,Pat was positively swinging on the 84 Guineas Winner.His Derby defeat left a sour taste in the mouth too! ‘Frankel’ may well win the Eclipse,connections think we have to try him over 11/2m in the King George just to see if we have any real chance of achieving genuine legendary status in the Arc but he fails to stay and gets beaten 3 lengths by ‘Nathaniel’.His bubbles burst big time and the publics perception of this ‘Wonder horse’ is left in tatters and thats how it will look…..He failed to cut the mustard at the table of racings elite! Back to a mile and he romps home….Brilliant Miler but No Champion like
Sea The stars
and
Nashwan
.
People blamed Greville but the fact is that Dancing Brave lost the Derby where most come from behind horses do; in the first couple of furlongs.
For someone who talks a helluva lot of sense normally Eclipse…………You couldn’t be further from the truth with that belief!
GREVILLE F****D UP BIG TIME
,It is well recognised down in Pulborough that
Dancing Brave
should have won the 86 Derby,Greville knew he was on a racing certainty,the day before the race he is quoted as saying the horse was ‘Bombproof’ and that he could ride him however he wanted as he would win,he was 100% certain he’d get the trip standing on his head,everything would have gone to plan except Greville wanted to show off! Oh he did that alright! The worst ride I ever saw……..Until Mike Smith on
Zenyatta
came along!
You’re both wrong. Well, EF is part right.
Would’ve thought you were a better race reader than that Gord.It was decided beforehand that Dancing Brave was going to be held up towards the back of the field, so that it would be easier to settle the 2000 Guineas (mile) winner. Unfortunately 86 was a very rare, very slowly run Derby. Graham Goode even made mention of it in his commentary. As they turned in to the home straight "And finally! The pace quickens".
Epsom is such a sod of a course. Ups and downs, turns with gradiants going the "wrong way". In such a big field, once the decision was made to hold the horse up Greville had to sit and suffer. No good giving away so much ground going around the outside of the turn at the top of the hill, down it or around Tattenham Corner. Once in line for home Greville got Dancing Brave going at an amazing speed, I remember sectional time analists astounded. Don’t think it’s ever been matched. Dancing Brave certainly "acted on the track". I Doubt it was just Greville’s decision to hold the horse up. Trainer and owner got to take some blame.
Anyway, it is interesting that Pat Eddery rode the horse in exactly the same fashion in the Arc, held up somewhere near the back. This time though, plenty of early pace ensured Dancing Brave came through to win. It’s strange; jockeys are hostages to fortune. Sometimes there’s too strong a pace favouring those in behind, sometimes little pace favouring prominent runners. Both Greville and Pat were hostages to fortune. One was supposedly the "worst ride ever", the other I’ve heard described as "the best".
Pat and Dancing Brave winning the Arc has pride of place above my fireplace.Value Is EverythingMany blames Greville Starkey that day but when you watch the race he was out and in the clear for a very long time.
This was Dancing Braves first attempt at 12 furlong and the media had him past the post if he stayed.
To make sure he did get the trip they held him up and really Greville did very little wrong.
You mention the undulation Ginger which probably played a big part in his defeat but the camber in the straight also help make the difference between defeat and victory.
Sharastani was hacking over everything turning for home that day and was a very good horse in his own right.
He had been up with the pace most of the way and was always going to be hard to catch the minute he hit the front.
Dancing Brave like all good 3 year olds was improving with every race but he found catching the winner just beyond him.
It’s easy to blame Greville and say he left him too much to do but Dancing Brave at his best had plenty time to catch him. He looked all a sea up the straight at Epsom. Whether it was just the course or he hadn’t quite reached his maximum potential or not is debatable
Dancing Brave in my opinion improved no end after the Derby and went on to absolutely hack up in the King George and followed that by an even more impressive win in The Arc.
If the horse who won the Arc had turned up at Epsom he would have won the Derby by 5 lengths undulations and cambers or not.
Pat Eddery like Greville in the Derby had Dancing Brave out the back door with only a few behind him. Turning for home again he had many lengths to make up but the difference was there was no camber to unbalance him and Dancing Brave had most likely reached the climax of his career that day which was reflected in his time when he broke Detroit’s record for the race.
Many would argue with that but I maintain circumstances beyond Greville’s control caused Dancing Brave’s defeat in the Derby and even if Pat Eddery had ridden him that day he may still have been beaten.
None of that really matter to Dancing Brave who put the record straight is up there among the all time greats.
Almost as impressive as Peintre Celebre making Pilsudski look like a plater in half a dozen strides Ginger!
Had Mr Eddery or even "Shut the Door" Ives been on Mtoto, he would have won at least one Arc. Not that I would ever wish to criticize any hopeless South African Jockey. We seem to have drifted slightly OT. However, the thing about the classics is that they are a true and consistent test of the thoroughbred. As Federico Tesio stated in respect of the Derby, it has been run at the same time (within a couple of weeks) for nearly 200 years (now much longer) over the same course (except the first few renewals and the war). Any horse that wins the Guineas and Derby will always be superior to any other animal of its generation. Trainers do not have an option of when to prepare their 3 year olds for these tests. To win the Guineas takes a fair amount of precocity and you need a horse that comes to hand nice and early. The Derby asks the thoroughbred to go uphill, come down a hill, round a corner then when their stamina is starting to wane, another uphill finish with the natural inclination to hang with the camber. To win the race you generally need a little bit of luck, or more pertinently to avoid bad luck, but again you need to be able to stay 12 furlongs on the first Saturday (now) in June. The very different demands of each race means that any horse that has won both races has shown the qualities that all breeders aspire to when breeding the racehorse.
I am perhaps being a little unfair on the St Leger, which is a better race than it gets credit for, however the Arc has superseded it as the natural target for the last two potential triple crown winners. It is not a race that appeals to owners and trainers but I cannot imagine any potential breeder would be deterred by a Guineas winner who had the stamina to win over the Leger trip.
Turning for home again he had many lengths to make up but the difference was there was no camber to unbalance him
Camber made no difference to Dancing Brave HGM. No horse doing the time he did for the last 5f can be said not to act on the camber. The problem was, because of the early pace, everything else had plenty of speed left. For Dancing Brave to make up so much ground when others were still quickening… was remarkable. If it wasn’t for Shahrastani being an above average quality Derby winner, he’d have won it too. Giving away so much ground to Shahrastani was too much even for a "Great" colt, even when in the same form as he was in the Arc/King George..
Value Is EverythingGinge/Hurdy, you are both correct in your analysis of the 86 Derby,it was slowly run,’Sharastani’ was beautifully ridden,the course did have an effect on ‘Dancing Brave’ but no more than it did any other horse in the race.Greville rode a shocker,its common knowledge at Freemason lodge too that he cocked it up big time,coincidentally he rode out for them every week so he knew the Aga Khans colt well,his Irish Derby demolition confirmed him as a classy colt but his 2 subsequent defeats at the hands of ‘The Brave’ only proved that he was a lucky winner of The Derby.As you quite rightly point out Ginge,’Dancing Brave’ clocked a final furlong time equivalent to a 5 furlong sprinter which only cements the fact that the horse had plenty in reserve had he been placed appropriately to use his blistering speed.To this day its the only race that makes me feel sick watching it,I wonder why?
All this Frankel Vs Black Caviar hype is doing my head in. Ten minutes this morning on the Morning Line discussing the possibility of a race that looks, at best, unlikely, and is four months away.
They might want to start looking at TODAY’s racing rather than hypothetical matches. They might find their viewing figures went up.
I could see the whole thing being an anti-climax in any case. Frankel destroying the mare over a turf mile in UK high summer but the Aussies walking away happy with bulging wallets.
Interesting that she is heavier than Denman though! That was the only item of interest about the whole discussion.
(And yes, I did get out of bed on the wrong side)
Agreed. Its not heavyweight boxing! and all this "lets get it on" stuff is very unappealing. I’ll enjoy the purity of these two great racehorses without seeing them lured into unsuitable races for cash.
And if Racing can’t promote itself through Frankel and Black Caviar as they stand, then that’s Racing problem.
Connections reticence to be applauded imo.
I’m not bothered at all and doubt it will happen
One is a sprinter, the other is a 8-10 furlong horse.
Won’t matter if people talk Moody wont even ask the group that owns the horse i they want to have a go until he has a better idea of what he is up against.
To do that he’s got to run her against the best sprinters around and trounce them.
I she does slaughter them I think they will want to have a crack.
It will die a natural death on here until nearer the time unless someone ups the anti and offers an even larger bonus or one of them loses a race.
Not a lot to talk about at the moment or at least there wasn’t until someone started this thread
To be frank, although it’s most likely a non event I can’t really say it’s been done to death yet and I’m not sure it will receive overkill all year unlike the jockeys championship which was again given several minutes on the programme.
They go on about that as though every jockey is battling tooth and nail to go for it when this couldn’t be further from the truth and most of the racing public couldn’t give a monkeys about it.
I agree with that. We can’t expect to have the same buzz about the jockeys or trainers championship as we do horses. We all know PN, Nicky, AP, Ruby, Hanagan and Moore are brilliant and what they are capable of.
With Frankel and Black Caviar there’s that uncertainty of not knowing how they compare that get’s the blood flowing.
The build up to Mill House V Arkle would have filled this forum 10 times over but it was inevitable that was always going to happen.
Frankel V Black Caviar may never happen and that’s a bummer.
If it was certain to take place wild horses wouldn’t stop members and racegoers everywhere having their say.
No, deal with it.
The two best racehorses in the world, unbeaten and invincible possibly until they meet – doesn’t get much better than that and the prolonged expectation keeps the excitement going.
Look at how much people bang on here about those slow jumps horses, like Kauto vs Long Run – both beaten horses many times – and then you even give them their own part of the forum, and another for next year!
Pffft.
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