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I’ve been following racing for so long I can just recall seeing Ribot winning The King George on Pathe News and I thought Frankel was the best flat horse I’ve ever seen but this mare worries me should they ever meet.
It’ll be no walkover for either of them, Black Caviar is not to be confused with So You Think, maybe because the Aussies got so carried away with him, it’s a bit harder for us to swallow yet another "wonder" horse from down under.But of course neither will even come close to challenging Kinscem’s exploits. She must be the greatest racehorse of all time
Watching her win that last race was rather like watching one of those sprints you see in the cycling velodromes. You know when they go painstaking slowly for three laps and then pedal like nutters on the last lap.
I can’t think for the life of me what the connections of the beaten horses were trying. But then I can’t see what most of the horses were doing in a 7 furlong race anyway. They were all stayers! Midas Touch was 2nd in the Leger!
Black Caviar is an exceptional mare and I can’t wait to see her over here but I’m sorry even the most one eyed Aussie (thankfully we don’t have any on here
) would have to admit that race was a bit of a joke and told us nothing about whether she might stay further than sprint distances."this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
CS,
I think a lot of the hype around SYT came from there as well,having said that he is still hard to knock,3 group 1 wins there,1 very unlucky 2nd and a close second in another and a 4th in the Arc,very good form in my book,so i would say he delivered.Not a wonder horse,but a top class world class horse all the same.They may have cantered Jonibake but i think anyone could see she is relaxed and good enough to get further.GT while Frankel may beat her at a mile,not for mine though,one thing is for certain,6f as good as Frankel is would be a comfortable win to the mare 13/13 at 6f.For the first time,when asked about a meeting with Frankel,Moody and the owners welcomed the idea in reports in the last couple of days,seems like a race such as the Queen Anne would be possibly be the only chance.Probably wont happen,but supporters of both would be very nervous if it did.I think anyone who said they wouldn’t be nervous would be lying,after all the worlds best is up for grabs and the mystique has disappeared for the loser.Frankel v Black Caviar in the Queen Anne would be wonderful and yes I WOULD be nervous. She IS a great mare. But over a stiff mile verses Frankel? Only one winner.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
CS while Kincsem may have the longest unbeaten winning streak,racing in the 1800’s was very amatuer,and lets face it the ‘Wonder’ horse Overdose whilst a good horse shows the true class of Hungarian horse racing.I think the only way the horses behind him in Budapest would win a good class race here or in the UK would be inside the stomach of a greyhound!
Frankel v Black Caviar in the Queen Anne would be wonderful and yes I WOULD be nervous. She IS a great mare. But over a stiff mile verses Frankel? Only one winner.
You may be right Jonibake,but she is untapped and i wouldnt like to have a gun to my head in the run if it involved the trigger being pulled should he get beaten,a lot of people here think that she is that relaxed she would win a Cox Plate and it can be seen why they think that.She isn’t bred for that trip,but plenty of other horses have belied their breeding and she is freakish.Glen Boss, Makybe Diva’s rider is one,others also,i thought the same thing before Boss and others said so,but didn’t mention it for obvious reasons!
I’ve been following racing for so long I can just recall seeing Ribot winning The King George on Pathe News and I thought Frankel was the best flat horse I’ve ever seen but this mare worries me should they ever meet.
It’ll be no walkover for either of them, Black Caviar is not to be confused with So You Think, maybe because the Aussies got so carried away with him, it’s a bit harder for us to swallow yet another "wonder" horse from down under.But of course neither will even come close to challenging Kinscem’s exploits. She must be the greatest racehorse of all time
CS,
What you and a lot of people there forget is the fact that So You Think had 6 starts on UK soil. 4wins,2seconds,3 Group 1 wins,1 Group 3.Butchered in the Prince Of Wales for a narrow 2nd and a close 2nd in the Champion Stks.He raced the best 10f horses there you could put forward. He had a 50% Group 1 strike rate there,compared with about a 40% in Australia.Never has such a good horse copped such an unfair bagging because of where he came from.It is a fact,that the only start there you could say he performed a bit below par was his 2nd in the Champion stks,should have been 5/5 before that, terrific form anywhere.CS while Kincsem may have the longest unbeaten winning streak,racing in the 1800’s was very amatuer,and lets face it the ‘Wonder’ horse Overdose whilst a good horse shows the true class of Hungarian horse racing.I think the only way the horses behind him in Budapest would win a good class race here or in the UK would be inside the stomach of a greyhound!
Sorry Jollyp, we hear the same sh*t from those too young to remember Arkle, another freak of nature, 3 stone better than any jumper we’ve seen since. I doubt we’ll ever see his like again
What do they say…..Training is different today, look at the way jockeys rode, he beat nothing etc etc, TOTAL RUBBISH
Anyone who knows racing would know he was a total "ONE OF"
Kinscem was another, if she was reincarnated today she’d blow away everything we’ve got away, Frankel, Black Caviar,Sea Bird, Secretariat you name the horse, she’d do them, of that I’m totally convinced.Back to your heroine, Black Caviar is obviously a real gem, don’t dilute her by comparing her to So You Think, I’m really looking forward to seeing her in Europe, I hope she doesn’t meet Frankel until they both go to stud unbeaten.
Sorry Jollyp, we hear the same sh*t from those too young to remember Arkle, another freak of nature, 3 stone better than any jumper we’ve seen since. I doubt we’ll ever see his like again
What do they say…..Training is different today, look at the way jockeys rode, he beat nothing etc etc, TOTAL RUBBISH
Anyone who knows racing would know he was a total "ONE OF"
Kinscem was another, if she was reincarnated today she’d blow away everything we’ve got away, Frankel, Black Caviar,Sea Bird, Secretariat you name the horse, she’d do them, of that I’m totally convinced.What startling statements! While I agree that Arkle is the best chaser we’ve ever seen and probably by a fair way, but to suggest he is 42lbs better than the likes of Kauto Star, Desert Orchid, Badsworth Boy, Borrough Hill Lad, Best Mate etc. is to put in your words TOTAL RUBBISH.
You may refer to the Timeform assessment of 220 in 1966, but if you believe that you must believe Flyingbolt is about 2 stones better that the 3rd best ever, I don’t think so!
As for Kincsem, she must have been undoubtedly an outstanding horse in her era, to say she could have beaten "ALL" the best of the modern era Thoroughbreds is quite frankly ridiculous. On what shread of evidence can you base that judgment on?
As I’ve posted before on other threads, because a horse has achieved something that nothing else has that does not automatically make them great horses.
By the way I do believe the longest winning sequence (although not an unbeaten career) was Camarero with 56 win in row including the Puerto Rico Triple Crown.
jollyp, I don’t think that Overdose is a fair comparison to Kincsem just because they were both Hungarian! Kincsem won races in the UK & other countries, not just Hungary. She must have been some sort of wonder horse. I would question the strength of the South/Central American Form of Camarero way before I questioned anything Kincsem did.
Jonibake, of course you are right re the quality of horse that Black Caviar faced in the Orr. There were no sprinters of top class. Southern Speed is gravely underrated and maybe now pigeon holed as a stayer after her Caulfield Cup win but she is a top class 1600m – 2400m horse, not in the Frankel class, but, who is? She’d be competitive in Group races in the UK. What the race did show was the fact that Black Caviar can relax so easily in a race, I was sure that she was going to pull & reef when the brakes were on but she just went to sleep. That race was nothing more than a track gallop.
Yes, a race between Frankel & Black Caviar would be one to savour. I’d be worried about both being defeated as both are extreme top shelf. It will be interesting to see how Frankel progresses as a 4yo, many in your part of the world don’t, let’s hope he does.
I know all about Kinscem’s racing exploits across 19th century Europe – having read her remarkable story. She certainly was brilliant in that era.
However, I take a very different view from Cheltenham Specialist in that I cannot envisage her troubling any of the great horses of the modern day era – just as I don’t think the revered Eclipse would have been good enough to compete with the Sea-Birds, Ribots and Secretariats of this world.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Atlantic Jewel V Frankel? What a waste of time that would be he’d beat her by a furlong
She won the 1000 easily enough but the others who wouldn’t get a job as Frankel’s pacemaker were way too close to be thinking she’s even be within a stone of him.
UM! Best to check the form before you make stupid statements,the horse that ran 2nd to Atlantic Jewel in the 1000 Guineas (Mosheen) came out and won the $1 million Group 1 VRC Oaks by 9 lengths!!!!!!!!!!!! 2 starts later!!! And Mosheen won brilliantly over 7f first up a week ago! In the 1000 Guineas,Atlantic Jewel wasnt let go and cantered to the line!
Form against what? You guys can’t even keep the Melbourne Cup at home and all we send over is listed horses and handicappers.
I was reading recently you want World recognition for the race which will never ever happen until you change the date it’s run and it is no longer a Handicap.
While you lot are telling all it’s the greatest race in the world the real champions are heading for the Arc and the Breeders.
I love Aussies mate but as far as racing goes you live in a dream world.
Once your lot race beyond 6f you become a 3rd world racing country and horse like Atlantic Jewel would think they had gone into orbit if they ran in our 2000 or 1000 Guineas.
Even if Frankel dropped back to 6 furlongs he kick Black Caviar into touch. This is no ordinary great this horse is up there with Sea Bird II and Secretariat while Black Caviar is just another Zenyatta who we all loved but knew her limitations as should you guys from down under
HG Man,
Now where do we say the Melb Cup is the greatest race in the world? We know it is a hcp over 2 mile,so it gives the chance of a lesser horse winning.It is probably close to the best known race in the world,and as Mark Johnston,Dermot Weld have said,they have never seen anything like it before for atmosphere.3rd raters hey? Again do your form,from limited horses going over there that were other than sprinters the record is sensational.If Zenyetta was from there,you would rate her much higher,a champion mare,unlucky not to go out unbeaten,but even she didn’t beat the males giving them up to 8kg,running 1min7.3 for the 6f,that is in another league,all of her 7 Group 1 wins have been against the males.SYT and Starcraft are the only ones that come to mind at the moment who fit into your assumption.Frankel beat BC at 6f bullsh*t,you rememember when you see Atlantic Jewel over there and your post puts a nice amount of egg on your face.And CS ,dont you dilute SYT,if you rate him that badly it makes your horses p*ss poor.
As for Kincsem, yes she won a Goodwood Cup,but most wins came in Hungary,Austria,Vienna,Germany a great mare she must have been but not much opposition there and the Goodwood Cup is no Arc so she deserves the winningest unbeaten title but not the best by a long chalk.
I’ll bite, quite happily…
"Form against what? You guys can’t even keep the Melbourne Cup at home and all we send over is listed horses and handicappers."
No, we can’t but it has nothing to do with whom you refer to as "we". An English trained horse hasn’t won the Melbourne Cup or is France a Tasmanian like state? Dermot has won it twice, the French twice & Japanese once. So, please, keep sending over your listed horses.
"While you lot are telling all it’s the greatest race in the world the real champions are heading for the Arc and the Breeders."
The Arc, yes, but only if they have testicles or are female. The Breeders’ Cup? Are you for real? The BCCT is a joke of a WFA G1 race. The recent list of winners is not top class, certainly no better than the Melbourne Cup. Our racing industry is going along just fine, the most professionally run in the world. Take a look in your own back yard.
"Once your lot race beyond 6f you become a 3rd world racing country and horse like Atlantic Jewel would think they had gone into orbit if they ran in our 2000 or 1000 Guineas."
Yes, true. It’s what we breed for. I don’t agree with it but there is so much money up for grabs as 2yo’s everybody wants a quick pay day. What you say about Atlantic Jewel is just your opinion, nothing more..
"Even if Frankel dropped back to 6 furlongs he kick Black Caviar into touch. This is no ordinary great this horse is up there with Sea Bird II and Secretariat while Black Caviar is just another Zenyatta who we all loved but knew her limitations as should you guys from down under "
Highly unlikely but it all opinion based. Zenyatta, please.. She beat up on females for most of her career, Black Caviar has taken on the 3rd highest sprinter in the world 4 times & beaten him senseless each time. The 2nd highest rated sprinter now appears to be off his game. What about this, what if you are wrong, what if she is in fact up with Sea Bird II. It’s entirely possible. If Choisir, Takeover Target, Scenic Blast & Miss Andretti can win G1s in the UK this horse will rock your world…
Let’s hope that Frankel progresses to 4, a big risk stud wise.. My advise is that we all enjoy the fact that we get to watch 2 champions strutt their stuff. Horses like this don’t come around every year.
There’s no arguing against Black Caviar’s dominance as a sprinter. I follow Asian sprinting which has been quite strong in recent years and she’s easily the best sprinter in over a decade and likely more.
She hasn’t been beating much recently (Southern Speed over a slowly-run 7f not strong opposition) but did enough last year to justify her reputation (destroying Star Witness who showed himself to be on the level of the European sprinters). Asian sprinters can’t even get close, and the best Asian sprinter probably ever (young Sacred Kingdom) is a length or two adrift AT BEST.
You can argue that middle-distance racing is superior to sprinting but Black Caviar’s dominance in the sprinting ranks can’t be debated.
) would have to admit that race was a bit of a joke and told us nothing about whether she might stay further than sprint distances.
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