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Hi folks,
My first post. Looking forward to more posts of a more positive nature.
Today I placed Fingal Lad in the 5.20 at Down Royal. A Flat NH race with 20 starters. I got what I believe to be a good price of 10.34 for the place.
I’m new to wagering on horses in Europe. I spent a year in Oz and got well acquainted with racing there though. Needless to say then I’m greener than green when it comes to Betfair. I got caught out today…
I was confident that with 20 runners, 4 places would pay. I thought it was a given, I’ve seen it so many times! At first I thought FL had the 4th but soon found out actually 5th. (Remotely similar colours and FL name said by caller.)
Before I realised the actual result I checked the payout places. I know I should have checked before betting but the price was not gonna be there long. Only 3 place getters from 20 starters?? Lucky I checked the result after or I’d still be raging.
I retrospectively read the race rules to find out the truth. I’m here bitching but mostly I’m asking:
1) 3 places from 20 runners. Is this common?
2) Is this common on Betfair?
3) This ever happened to anybody else?Thanks!
Standard practise with all bookmakers and exchanges is:
Up to 4 runners Win only
5,6,7 runners Places first two
8 and up Places first three
16 and up handicaps Places first fourThey key thing to watch out for are the place terms – usually 1/4 or 1/5th
the odds – which makes all the difference.Some firms also offer special deals (particularly if they sponsor a race or it is particularly competitive like at Cheltenham) where they offer 4 places on 16+ non handicaps, 5 places on 16+ handicaps or better fractions.
I’m sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but if I am not mistaken Tote Ireland pay out 1,2,3,4 on
all
races with 16+ runners
I personally like it when non-runners mean that the number of places is one less than the number of runners and Braveheart has the odds-on jolly
Read the market rules on the upper right of the BF page, that will tell you how many places the race is paying.
Biggest goldmine in racing place laying "always trying" when the e/w price is out of line on BF. As brazen as you like, but nothing gets done.
I knew that Adrian, but
1/4 of 20 = 5.
1/5 of 20 = 4
Is there often an exception to this?
It seems really stupid. Although I realise the logic behind the price I was given!
I think I’ll stick to the exchanges regardless of the tote paulostermeyer.
Biggest goldmine in racing place laying "always trying" when the e/w price is out of line on BF. As brazen as you like, but nothing gets done.
I’m not sure I get you
Overall in my experience the place markets on Betfair are hyper efficient Nulty and seem to favour place layers rather than backers a lot of the time. You’ll certainly be getting a good bit less than the conventional 1/4 or 1/5 the odds a lot of the time.
You can use this to your advantage with certain trainers though, "always trying" is one of them.
I really dont understand what you mean. I’m a little over my depth with these things tbh. I wont drag it out of you but I reckon you mean the prices are extremely low in place backing.
When you say less than ‘1/4’ and ‘1/5’ you mean – of the runners that pay?
I’m not familiar with the always trying trainers but I’m gonna do some research for my self. As for getting an advantage, well, I’m a long way off gaining that edge.
Nulty
Check out http://www.markjohnstonracing.com/
nulti
The number of places and the relevant fractions offered by bookmakers depends on the number of runners and the type of race. The each-way terms are set out in the rules of racing and Adrian has set them out above.
Example 1 – say you bet a horse at 16/1 in a handicap with 20 runners. Standard terms are 1/4 the odds paying 4 places so if your horse is placed (1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th) you will be paid 4/1 for the place part of the bet.
Example 2 – you bet a horse at 16/1 in a non-handicap with 20 runners. Standard terms are 1/5 the odds paying 3 places so if your horse is placed (1st, 2nd, or 3rd) you will be paid 3.2/1 for the place part of the bet.
Sometimes bookmakers will offer enhanced place terms to entice you to bet with them so they may pay 5 places instead of the standard 4 or alternatively they may pay 1/4 the odds when they only have to pay 1/5 the odds.
Non-runners can affect the terms of your bet (even if you’ve already placed the bet). So if you bet in a race which had 16 runners when you bet so you think you are getting 4 places, a non-runner will mean that the bookmakers will only have to pay out on 3 places instead of 4. This is a bugbear of many punters and something that forumite Glenn mentions briefly from time to time
Betfair is unusual regarding place betting in that
1. The number of places on offer is strictly always based on those laid down in the rules of racing – eg – they only offer 4 places even on the Grand National where there are 40 runners. No special offers on Betfair, EVER!
2. Unlike on the high street, the number of places paid on Betfair never changes so even if a 16 runner handicap reduces to 5 runners they will still pay 4 places
Couple of other points in relation to points raised by other posters:
Outside of the Triumph Hurdle, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a firm pay 4 places on a non-handicap race, even at Cheltenham
Paul is right regarding the Irish tote paying 4 places on all races with 16+runners
Signor Rampante is referring to a Scottish vet currently residing in Middleham, North Yorkshire who when sounding off is usually very trying
Overall in my experience the place markets on Betfair are hyper efficient Nulty and seem to favour place layers rather than backers a lot of the time. .
If that were the case, then every ( or most ) races would present an arbing opportunity, surely? Lay the Place on Betfair and Back the Place on Tote, etc etc. Unfortunately, this is not evidential in reality.
Realistically, one cannot expect 1/4 odds Place bet only in a race which features an odds-on favourite. People tend to overlook the fact that the Win component (50% of your outlay) of an E/W bet on such an event with a bookmaker is, quite frankly, wasted. The Place only Betfair market reflects this prejudice.
Personally I believe that on occasion the Betfair Place market offers very profitable opportunities about those horses which perennially run into a place without winning.
If that were the case, then every ( or most ) races would present an arbing opportunity, surely? Lay the Place on Betfair and Back the Place on Tote, etc etc. Unfortunately, this is not evidential in reality.
Your correct it isn’t evidential in reality precisely because Tote arbers have shortened the Tote place dividend to a point where it isn’t feasible to create an arb on Betfair place markets any more.
Realistically, one cannot expect 1/4 odds Place bet only in a race which features an odds-on favourite. People tend to overlook the fact that the Win component (50% of your outlay) of an E/W bet on such an event with a bookmaker is, quite frankly, wasted. The Place only Betfair market reflects this prejudice.
I agree and your explanation of why that is so is admittedly a lot better than mine.
Personally I believe that on occasion the Betfair Place market offers very profitable opportunities about those horses which perennially run into a place without winning.
Perhaps so, any examples? It appears that odds on horses in the win market are usually no less than 1/5 their odds on the place market, maybe an opportunity exists there albeit more of a bet for the heavy hitters than the leisure punter.
If that were the case, then every ( or most ) races would present an arbing opportunity, surely? Lay the Place on Betfair and Back the Place on Tote, etc etc. Unfortunately, this is not evidential in reality.
.. the arbing thing is blown miles out of proportion to what actually goes on and what is available. You would need to be getting on the same sort of money as Gordon Brown or Doctor Evil, talk about, to get any realistic sort of return.
Anyone who tried out the momentum trading trick, a while back, would attest to that.
Tote arbers have shortened the Tote place dividend to a point where it isn’t feasible to create an arb on Betfair place markets any more.
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Cav, I fully concur!
But doesn’t that suggest that the Betfair Place betting interchange in any race has approached a "perfect market" situation? I.E., a market where the prices on a Back or Lay is as close a dammit to reflecting the true mathematical chance of a particular contingency. (Which was my original contention that the Betfair Place market is "fair").Dave, I absolutely agree with you. Anyone arbing is doing so with the probable end-of-day reward of the price of a Mars bar. A pointless exercise imo with the ever-present possibility of going down in a major crash-and-burn if not using a disciplined stop/loss mechanism. My original post on this topic was never a recommendation of the "art" of arbing.
David,
I agree these place specials tend to only be at Cheltenham. Boylesports were offering some good ones on the Friday:
5 places in the County Hurdle
4 places in the Foxhunter (which as you know is a non-handicap)
1/3 the odds in the Triumph Hurdle
1/3 the odds in the Albert BartlettI think the Triumph was first 4 places with most bookmakers.
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