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- Total Posts 17716
The answer to all this might be to create a national betfair type of organization.
Customer friendly and government friendly at the same time.I know it’s not possible:
Marxist-Leninists will throw the book at me.
Tory monetarists will also throw the book at me.Meanwhile euro monopolies, the companies formed by the uptown aging strip club dancers we all love, are preparing a night of Saint Bartholomew for the euro-punters.
UK punters enjoy the benefit to be eaten last.Well, if you are in business, you’re not likely to be in it with the aim of maximising your tax liability. Obviously.
If you’re in business, you are likely to want to minimise your tax liability – if that doesn’t impact overall profitability.
That people don’t like the resulting loss to the exchequer is something to take up with the people who make the laws.
Betfair can’t be blamed for arranging their affairs within the law to avoid tax.
Does anyone on here go out of their way to pay extra tax?
- Total Posts 17716
Does anyone on here go out of their way to pay extra tax?
Nobody was asking for "extra tax" from Betfair, and their advisers will already have seen to it that they were avoiding paying more than the bare minimum assessed by HMRC – which already gave them a huge advantage over the great majority of individual citizens. So your analogy is false.
At what point does fiscal prudence turn into immorality? This company is biting the hand that has fed it. That’s the debate here, and it’s nothing like so simplistic as you would paint it.
Does anyone on here go out of their way to pay extra tax?
Nobody was asking for "extra tax" from Betfair, and their advisers will already have seen to it that they were avoiding paying more than the bare minimum assessed by HMRC – which already gave them a huge advantage over the great majority of individual citizens. So your analogy is false.
At what point does fiscal prudence turn into immorality? This company is biting the hand that has fed it. That’s the debate here, and it’s nothing like so simplistic as you would paint it.
Generally, matters are simple. A plea that it’s more complicated can just be an argument advanced by someone who finds his interests are not suited by that simplicity.
Betfair have no obligation to remain UK-based for tax purposes.
Do you have any reason to suggest that they should?Preferably a ‘reason’, not just because you’d like Betfair to pay more tax.
- Total Posts 17716
Well expressed.
I still think if government want to do the business themselves, by setting up national betting networks, they might as well try.But not the ludicrous things we are used to and the cheating that goes on in such companies.
Nationalised betting companies cheat the customer and cheat the state as well, whom they are supposed to serve.
In my opinion it’s so because we, the people, are useless and not because of the system as such.we are sheep that will just take whatever crap is thrown at us?
That is exactly what we are and yet we continue to suffer the 6.5 million pound Bonus Banker and the likes,we could discuss the rapid state of deteriation of this country till the cows come home but the word Greed describes things pretty well.I often wonder where our Road Taxes alone dissapear to because its not in the pot holes thats killing those riding motorbikes.
Here’s a question –
Assuming that Betfair are to continue to invest in their UK operations – who would you trust to invest this money more efficiently : Betfair or The Government?
In fairness, as long as Betfair continue to get what they consider adequate returns on their money, the laws of the market suggest they will continue to invest in their business and in their UK operation (meaning jobs, deals with suppliers, sponsorship for racing etc).
Personally, I would choose Betfair over the Politicians any day of the week (regardless of whether they are red, blue, yellow or a coalition).
The fact is – if a businessman invests his money poorly then invariably he no longer has a business*. The very fact businesses exist in a competitive environment forces them to be efficient distributors of capital; or they die.
*except those lucky bankers who seem to do OK regardless
- Total Posts 17716
Here’s a question –
Assuming that Betfair are to continue to invest in their UK operations – who would you trust to invest this money more efficiently : Betfair or The Government?
In fairness, as long as Betfair continue to get what they consider adequate returns on their money, the laws of the market suggest they will continue to invest in their business and in their UK operation (meaning jobs, deals with suppliers, sponsorship for racing etc).
Personally, I would choose Betfair over the Politicians any day of the week (regardless of whether they are red, blue, yellow or a coalition).
The fact is – if a businessman invests his money poorly then invariably he no longer has a business*. The very fact businesses exist in a competitive environment forces them to be efficient distributors of capital; or they die.
*except those lucky bankers who seem to do OK regardless
Historically I trust Betfair.
Ideally we should have strong laws protecting the consumer from all angles.
The statement "the market protects you better" is true only insofar as the state functions poorly. But it has always been like that.Here’s a question –
Assuming that Betfair are to continue to invest in their UK operations – who would you trust to invest this money more efficiently : Betfair or The Government?
In fairness, as long as Betfair continue to get what they consider adequate returns on their money, the laws of the market suggest they will continue to invest in their business and in their UK operation (meaning jobs, deals with suppliers, sponsorship for racing etc).
Personally, I would choose Betfair over the Politicians any day of the week (regardless of whether they are red, blue, yellow or a coalition).
The fact is – if a businessman invests his money poorly then invariably he no longer has a business*. The very fact businesses exist in a competitive environment forces them to be efficient distributors of capital; or they die.
*except those lucky bankers who seem to do OK regardless
Why make any assumption of Betfair investing in UK when they have just told everyone that they are divesting in the UK in favour of Ireland and Gibraltar?
Yes the Government are possibly even worse business investors than Betfair. What you have to consider though with the £18M, which is just the tip of the UK loss, is that the Government deficit is a further £18M short each and every year of being paid off. Now that loss will have to be paid off by people who have never had a bet in their life.
Businesses only exist sustainably within a wider societal interest than short term profit maximisation. If the UK taxpayer did not fund education, health, sanitation, police, law enforcement, defence, roads, railways, communications etc that businesses depend on to function, then those businesses will rapidly fold. All the supporting infrastructure to business has to be paid out of taxes.
So, in effect, UK taxpayers are subsidising increased profits for investors in Betfair. Is that what you want?
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Betfair have no obligation to remain UK-based for tax purposes.
Do you have any reason to suggest that they should?Yes – business ethics. Is that a concept with which you are familiar?
Betfair have benefited from the British Government’s concessions, and make their profits from the British taxpayer. They therefore have an ethical obligation to play fair by this country.
Of course, you are at liberty to say (as you effectively do) that as there’s no honour amongst thieves, then we should condone their thievery. You are equally at liberty to justify any unscrupulous behaviour you like with a cynical shrug of "that’s business".
But I wonder how long your liberty will last? unless we make great efforts now to control the increasingly piratical independence of companies such as Betfair, who with their virtual consumer base are able to play off the laws of one state against another, just as it suits them.
The attempted blackmail of banks such as NSBC, currently threatening to move lock stock and barrel to the Far East if H. M. Government dares to act on the wishes of the British people by curbing their greed at taxpayers’ expense is another example of this dangerous failure of the business ethic.
Your tone conveys that it’s somehow perfectly right for little Betfair to stick two fingers up at this country. I profoundly disagree.
UK punters no longer protected by the gambling commission. All those Mickmacmagoole exchange backers will surely be packing it in now.
How ’bout scrapping the tits on a bull gambling commission quango. £18 million plus re-coffered in jig-time.
- Total Posts 17716
The practical side of things:
The UK government shoud support Betfair and they, in turn, should cooperate with the government.
Sarkozy effectively banned Betfair in France.The shape of things to come for punters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOKW0AZ6hdw
Wakey wake !
Hi Robert99 –
Why make any assumption of Betfair investing in UK when they have just told everyone that they are divesting in the UK in favour of Ireland and Gibraltar?
A good point – I will clarify what I mean by investment : the 1000+ UK tax payers they employ and the unknown quantity of money they spend with suppliers/partner companies and in the media.
Yes the Government are possibly even worse business investors than Betfair. What you have to consider though with the £18M, which is just the tip of the UK loss, is that the Government deficit is a further £18M short each and every year of being paid off. Now that loss will have to be paid off by people who have never had a bet in their life.
It’s not a loss though. The UK Government have no legal right to that money. Also – I’ve never bet on stocks, shares, CDS (or whatever they’re called) in my time as a UK tax payer, yet I’m helping to paying for that bill (for the rest of my life no doubt). That bill is significantly bigger than 18 or even 180 million. My point was merely that Betfair have broken no law and are arguably more efficient investors than government.
You also assume that none of this 18 million will be re invested in the UK. Whilst the government wont be getting it directly, Betfair are still looking to recruit lots of people in the UK and Betfair are a large advertiser in here (like or loathe media it makes lots of cash for the government).
Businesses only exist sustainably within a wider societal interest than short term profit maximisation. If the UK taxpayer did not fund education, health, sanitation, police, law enforcement, defence, roads, railways, communications etc that businesses depend on to function, then those businesses will rapidly fold. All the supporting infrastructure to business has to be paid out of taxes.
I absolutely agree with you – but we can’t forget that it is business, trade and commerce that pays for the supporting infrastructure. Without business providing investment, jobs and many of the services you list above – there is no UK Taxpayer only UK dole claimer.
To my understanding our country has very little in terms of natural resources to sell. As such, in my opinion, we need dynamic and forward thinking companies like Betfair. Unfortunately we’re not the only ones. France, Ireland, Germany and the rest want them too. If we are too expensive, we cease to be a viable proposition and we lose these companies. It’s worth adding that in the past 10/20 years we have been benefited from significant overseas investment that creates jobs (I work for a US business that Hq’d in London rather than Paris or Berlin and employs 60+ people here), we put this investment at risk if we are charging too much in tax.
So, in effect, UK taxpayers are subsidising increased profits for investors in Betfair. Is that what you want?
No, I’m not in favour of that Robert99 – in fairness, that’s twisting my words.
My argument was that I would prefer Betfair to re-invest this money in the UK rather than give it to government. We don’t yet know whether they will or wont do that. Also – if I’ve read it correctly – their latest annual report states that 44% of revenue was from outside of the UK.
I don’t work for them either
- Total Posts 17716
we can’t forget that it is business, trade and commerce that pays for the supporting infrastructure. Without business providing investment, jobs and many of the services you list above – there is no UK Taxpayer only UK dole claimer.
To my understanding our country has very little in terms of natural resources to sell. As such, in my opinion, we need dynamic and forward thinking companies like Betfair. Unfortunately we’re not the only ones. France, Ireland, Germany and the rest want them too. If we are too expensive, we cease to be a viable proposition and we lose these companies. It’s worth adding that in the past 10/20 years we have been benefited from significant overseas investment that creates jobs (I work for a US business that Hq’d in London rather than Paris or Berlin and employs 60+ people here), we put this investment at risk if we are charging too much in tax.
Your measured post describes the problem precisely. Without going too far off-topic, what has gone wrong is that the social contract between Government (not some abstract entity, but representative of you and me) and Business (representing not just the shareholders, but the livelihoods of many people such as yourself) has broken down. The internet, paradoxically, has loaded the dice in favour of big business, which can now blackmail Governments into making unreasonable tax and trade concessions in their favour.
Betfair (who incidentally are very much
not
welcome in France, as usual far more sensitive to these concerns – and just about the only Western power to stand up against internet domination for many years) are playing this game, along with the rest. And it’s not "just" the UK which is losing out from their behaviour, it’s British Racing too.
I hope this does not happen, but I wonder how you will feel when
your
company relocates to Spain, or Ireland, or India? At that point, you may be grateful for the higher levels of tax-funded social support offered by the Government you see fit to call "unreasonable".
- Total Posts 17716
It’s daylight robbery in France, in what concerns prices:
PMU win percentage = 15%, Bf theoretical pecentage < 5%.
I have listened to so many socialist calls to increase taxes on everything that moves, but these people never bet.
It might be very interesting to hear what people with socialist views who actually do bet have to say.The French believe in the "theory of idiots".
They believe money falls from the ceiling or it grows in flower pots and furthermore we are all eager to give it to PMU (once the "bad internet" is out of the way).
Whilst that theory seems to hold certain ground, the punters run dry and eventually they have to stop. You can fool the people but you cannot fool the euros in their pockets, to paraphrase Abraham Lincoln. So the mean lifespan of the punters gets shorter.Betfair is of course not unpopular in France.
The French like to make everything French, but just like everybody else they don’t like being robbed.
Betfair is unpopular with the French monopoly bosses though.The French and their followers want to impose censorship on the web, just like China in Madame Mao’s heyday.
Betfair have no obligation to remain UK-based for tax purposes.
Do you have any reason to suggest that they should?Yes – business ethics. Is that a concept with which you are familiar?
Betfair have benefited from the British Government’s concessions, and make their profits from the British taxpayer. They therefore have an ethical obligation to play fair by this country.
Of course, you are at liberty to say (as you effectively do) that as there’s no honour amongst thieves, then we should condone their thievery. You are equally at liberty to justify any unscrupulous behaviour you like with a cynical shrug of "that’s business".
But I wonder how long your liberty will last? unless we make great efforts now to control the increasingly piratical independence of companies such as Betfair, who with their virtual consumer base are able to play off the laws of one state against another, just as it suits them.
The attempted blackmail of banks such as NSBC, currently threatening to move lock stock and barrel to the Far East if H. M. Government dares to act on the wishes of the British people by curbing their greed at taxpayers’ expense is another example of this dangerous failure of the business ethic.
Your tone conveys that it’s somehow perfectly right for little Betfair to stick two fingers up at this country. I profoundly disagree.
You’re reading values & opinions into my post that just weren’t there.
If you think that businesses are piratical or thieves, then that’s asserting that they’re acting outside the law; plainly, Betfair are not doing so.
‘Business ethics’ may have currency as a phrase in certain circles – I don’t know quite what it’s supposed to carry, though.
‘Ethics’ – that’s a personal matter and probably requires a maturity missing in most of society’s members, not just businessmen.
Crusading for ‘ethics’ or ‘morality’ is a sizeable venture. Finding out what they really mean would come first, naturally.
We’ve had millenia during which people have been telling others what they are & why they should be adopted; some historically ‘large’ names involved … but their influence dies away in time.Until the next moral revival, I think we’re stuck with relying on the law makers making effective laws.
Good luck with that!
Your measured post describes the problem precisely. Without going too far off-topic, what has gone wrong is that the social contract between Government (not some abstract entity, but representative of you and me) and Business (representing not just the shareholders, but the livelihoods of many people such as yourself) has broken down. The internet, paradoxically, has loaded the dice in favour of big business, which can now blackmail Governments into making unreasonable tax and trade concessions in their favour.
Betfair (who incidentally are very much
not
welcome in France, as usual far more sensitive to these concerns – and just about the only Western power to stand up against internet domination for many years) are playing this game, along with the rest. And it’s not "just" the UK which is losing out from their behaviour, it’s British Racing too.
I hope this does not happen, but I wonder how you will feel when
your
company relocates to Spain, or Ireland, or India? At that point, you may be grateful for the higher levels of tax-funded social support offered by the Government you see fit to call "unreasonable".
Hi Pinza – I’m not attacking the government and social support, nor am I pro big business. I merely stated that Betfair is operating within the legal framework set out for it and then went on to say that I believe Betfair (or any other organisation subject to market forces) would more efficiently distribute capital than government departments.
It may seem wrong but legally they are in the right.
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