- This topic has 43 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 21 years, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
I’m with Barry on this.
All the others on the island are cannibals and are not doing anything that would be classed as dishonesty if someone tried to prosecute them for theft, so why expect Barry to subject himself to a voluntary different code?
Betting isn’t like Kanu chasing the throw-in to the keeper – you play to the rules and the whistle because the others will.  Like futures / options / stock exchange trading – you have to understand the precise way the particular market and its technology works before getting involved.
It will be very interesting to see the detailed articulation of the much-trumpeted "cheating" offence to be introduced by the new gambling legislation…… personally I’lll be surprised if its deliverable.
best regards
wit
As much as yours and Barry’s points are interesting Ian, I don’t think that’s why Betfair are on the way down and the liquidity has fallen out of the arse of the market.
95% of races have very little strength up to our first show on-course,
liqidity only occurs when punters believe they are beating the market show,
the first 5 mins there is a lot of jockeying of positions both on-course and on exchanges,
the market and strength only stabilises in the last 2 mins
lots of races at certain tracks where I stand can be manipulated early by my investments,
is that o.k. for me to do that ian ?
Ian is right in thinking that football is an area where the exchanges have a distinct edge over bookies, furthermore, there’s seldom any liquidity problem (at least not on the televised games). (Monday night div1 game Tranmere v Bristol City – approx £1.5m matched so far).<br>What’s more, unlike with the horses, you can have confidence in the integrity of the sport (and those who bet on it) and there is less likelihood of false manipulation of prices by the really big players. <br>Maybe the day will come when so many smallish racing punters will have had enough of feeling they’re on a hiding to nothing that liquidity (on all bar the big races) will be worse than it is now. Just like fishermen have overfished cod to the point of exhaustion, the big betfair manipulators/bots may end up with nothing left to catch in their nets.
I don’t think the new commission calculator works very well, as follows;
Commission, Market Base Rate, Discount Rate, Betfair Points, Betfair Points Statement and Betfair Holidays
Betfair charges a Commission on your net winnings on a market. If you have a net loss on a market you do not pay commission.
Commission is calculated by multiplying your net winnings by the Market Base Rate, as shown on the Rules tab. From this we will apply a discount. The more you bet with us the greater the discount you will receive.
The size of this discount, or your Discount Rate, is determined by the number of Betfair Points you have accrued on your account. Betfair Points are earned in proportion to your betting activity – the more you bet, the more points you accrue, the greater your Discount Rate. Please note that your discount rate will be capped at 30% unless you have completed Betfair’s Know Your Customer check requirements.
You earn Betfair Points every time you bet on a market. You will earn 1 point for every 10 pence of commission paid (if you have net winnings) or implied commission (if you have a net loss). Betfair Points are awarded equally whether you win or lose.
Example:<br>You have net winnings in a market of £400.<br>The Market Base Rate is 5%.<br>Your current Discount Rate is 40%.<br>Therefore the commission you pay is £12 (£400 x 5% x (1-40%)).<br>You earn 120 Betfair Points.
For the purpose of calculating Betfair Points your commission or implied commission on a market is rebased to British Pounds at the time of settlement.
Your Discount Rate is calculated from your current Betfair Points every week. This occurs at midnight (GMT) every Sunday using the table below:
Betfair Points Discount Rate <br>From To <br> <br>0 999 0% <br> <br>1,000 3,999 5% <br> <br>4,000 6,999 10% <br> <br>7,000 9,999 15% <br> <br>10,000 13,999 20% <br> <br>14,000 18,999 25% <br> <br>19,000 24,999 30% <br> <br>25,000 32,999 35% <br> <br>33,000 43,999 40% <br> <br>44,000 59,999 45% <br> <br>60,000 76,999 50% <br> <br>77,000 99,999 55% <br> <br>100,000 – 60% <br>
<br>Once your Discount Rate has been calculated, your Betfair Points balance is reduced by 15%. This is known as the Weekly Decay. If you continue to bet at the same level each week, your Discount Rate will remain unchanged. If your Betfair Points at any time imply a higher Discount Rate, you will move to that rate immediately.
Discount Rates are applied at the time of market settlement rather than bet placement. These might be different for you in long term markets.
The Betfair Points Statement within your My Account section provides a full history of your Betfair Points, showing changes as a result of your betting activity, weekly decay and any relevant promotions. This statement also shows your current Discount Rate.
You are able to prevent the weekly decay of your Betfair Points by using a Betfair Holiday. You may continue to bet during your Betfair Holiday but will not earn Betfair Points for any markets settled during this period.
You earn one Betfair Holiday when you register and one additional Betfair Holiday every three months thereafter. You may use your Betfair Holiday at any time but cannot accrue more than four unused Betfair Holidays on your account.
The Betfair Holidays section within the My Account section provides a calendar of the next 26 weeks and enables you to book or cancel Betfair Holidays for any of these weeks.
Everyone pays more commission, unless they take the holiday, in which case, they will pay the same (allegedly).
Yes Barry a right cracker, you can’t actually  calculate your exact rate. According to posters on the betfair forum you add 2% to your old commission rate and that works out about right .. <br>:biggrin:
To be fair to Barry, if folk are making bets knowing that there is a time delay, then that’s the chance they take.
Can’t see how it is a problem to his image though Ian. :)
Ian
I think you’re right that the majority wouldn’t like too much talk of these tactics being used (and it probably isn’t good PR for exchanges), but it’s a free market and personally I applaud Barry for manipulating the market so long as he gets away with it. He’s still taking a risk as if he offers £5K there’s nothing to stop someone taking it and leaving a request for say £15K at the same price.
To a far lesser extent messing up the market is something I’ve done myself – self matching biggish bets very early in the market and leaving requests to make it look like a horse is being backed when it isn’t or vice versa.
"Fair enough  – however, I know of others who take a different view"
Ian,
Care to name them? MAybe you could do it by PM?
(Edited by ACR1 at 2:47 am on Jan. 11, 2005)
I have never met Barry and can only make a judgement on what i see,hear and read
From seeing and listening to Barry on TV,i had him down as likeable and respectable character<br>But reading his comment’s on this thread,i am afraid that the respect i had for Barry, has taken a nosedive
To me Barry is one of the "faces" of racing, and in these times of integrity issues in racing, the comment’s he has posted do nothing to help that integrity
What worries me most though is, how many more bookmaker’s are using the same or similar tactic’s in their quest to "rip off" the punter<br>
It would seem I have no morals either, nor do I care what people think of me when it comes to making a few quid. If I had the chance to do it, I’d do it, no two ways about it.
If people are stupid enough to bet in running then they’re going to lose that cash anyway (one way or another). After all, what is anybody that places a bet trying to do if they’re not trying to relieve another punter of their dosh, and theres nothing better than backing a dead cert.
Is there such a thing as bad publicity in this instance, or is it just publicity. I cant see how it could affect Barry from a buisness standpoint. I wouldnt have thought that people wont bet with him because of this, infact the reverse is likely to happen.
Maybe Barry made those quotes to add to his image. After all, are’nt bookmakers supposed to be loveable rouges, that keep you going back time and time again in an attempt to sting them with your "good thing".
As it happens, I’ve never thought about the name Barry Dennis so many times as I have whilst writing this (its working).
Be warned though Barry, I’m going to sting you hard and fast at Donny come the spring. I’ll be bringing the wheelbarrow!:biggrin:
by highlighting this aftertime loophole last july, I was trying to warn firstly TRF members and eventually all betting exchange users of the dangers,
Ian Davies (I presume but would bet double carpet on) contacted his ex journalistic pals informing them of my comments, they in turn contacting me for interviews.
the subsequent article in the racing post was ridiculed by a betfair spokesman, as impossible,
my part in aftertiming is minimal and sheer devilment,
i know I KNOW of several people who make a very good living using these methods on all markets
<br>YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
Barry
<br>Why would you highlight this aftertime issue,it does not affect you,does it?
Or are you on a one man covert operation to undermine the exchanges and their integrity ? :biggrin:
<br>i told Ian,you were the punter’s pal;)
(Edited by empty wallet at 9:05 am on Jan. 11, 2005)
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.