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Over the last 20-30 years I feel that the profile of English Derby winners has changed dramatically and irrevocably ever since US breeds became the vogue. There used to be a balance between speed and stamina. This years hero Workforce seems to be an exception which was proven when he won the Arc, and the stated intention for him to race as a 4 year old. How refreshing and a complete change from the Morstons and Lamtarra’s who rapidly went to stud. It was normally accepted that the Derby winner would certainly stay further and the St Leger was the normal route,also the Arc because although it is the Derby distance the normal prevailing going across the Channel makes it a little further. As for training a Derby winner as a 4 year old but I’m finding it difficult to recall many who have not gone to Stud at the end of their 3 year old career. The one who does spring to mind is St Paddy and I feel that the owner did us a great service in continuing with him….a fine example of a robust stayer with speed. Is this why their needs to be a rethink about the St Leger and should we follow the Irish example in opening it up to 4 year olds too ?
Slip Anchor raced at 4 I think. Quest For Fame maybe too.
I think plenty Derby winners would have stayed the Leger distance (or, at least, won the race) had they been trained for it. I always thought Nashwan should have been prepared for the Leger and Triple Crown, even though, with the race moved to Ayr that year, the gloss would have been taken off it. Similarly Sea The Stars, although it would be hard to wish his Arc win away.
There is nothing wrong with the St Leger other than fashion. Leave it as it is.
North Light would have won the Ascot Gold Cup let alone the Leger had he been given the chance.
Apart from Workforce; High Chaparral, North Light and Sir Percy are the most recent of the Derby winners to have been kept in training.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Apart from Workforce; High Chaparral, North Light and Sir Percy are the most recent of the Derby winners to have been kept in training.
Hello again great one ! Am I right in saying that of those you mention High Chapperal is the only one to have been consistent in his 4 year old career and did he also compete more often ?
I’ve no idea why Morston gets mentioned in a post about US breeding influencing the nature of the Derby. He was sired by Ragusa, a son if the great Italian racehorse Ribot and his dam was about as English as you could get. There wasn’t a drop of US blood anywhere in his pedigree.
And he was retired two or three months after the Derby because of a tendon injury – his half brother Blakeney who won the Derby four years earlier stayed in training and took on Nijinsky in 1970, so the owners had no history of rushing horses off to stud.
If you really want to know the story of US blood and how it came here and changed the Derby, you should read the Sangster biography called ‘Horsetrader’.
AP
Hello again great one ! Am I right in saying that of those you mention High Chapperal is the only one to have been consistent in his 4 year old career and did he also compete more often ?
Yes, you are perfectly correct. High Chapparal won the Irish Champion Stakes (beat Falbrav ) and a second Breeders Cup Turf, where he dead-heated with Johar.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
I’ve no idea why Morston gets mentioned in a post about US breeding influencing the nature of the Derby. He was sired by Ragusa, a son if the great Italian racehorse Ribot and his dam was about as English as you could get. There wasn’t a drop of US blood anywhere in his pedigree.
APRagusa’s second dam, Red Eye, was American-bred with an American pedigree typical of that era, with intense inbreeding to Domino. The dam line is American back to the 1830s.
I’ve no idea why Morston gets mentioned in a post about US breeding influencing the nature of the Derby. He was sired by Ragusa, a son if the great Italian racehorse Ribot and his dam was about as English as you could get. There wasn’t a drop of US blood anywhere in his pedigree.
And he was retired two or three months after the Derby because of a tendon injury – his half brother Blakeney who won the Derby four years earlier stayed in training and took on Nijinsky in 1970, so the owners had no history of rushing horses off to stud.
If you really want to know the story of US blood and how it came here and changed the Derby, you should read the Sangster biography called ‘Horsetrader’.
AP
I do not see how you have made the link between Morston and US breeding. Mention of the latter was in connection with the diminishing number of Derby winners who have kept in training as a 4 year old.
As the Derby is still run at Epsom in June over 12f, then it doesn’t really matter if the winners comprise mainly of Irish, English, American or Hungarian breds – does it?
If the latest batch of Derby winners (or at least those with predominately American pedigrees) are, on average, slower over the 12f than previous years and finish gasping and jelly-legged, then maybe they are more "speed" than stamina horses, but as I doubt that’s the case (although I’ve not investigated that) then surely they stay just as well as their predecessors and so can’t be labelled "speed" horses – regardless of pedigree.
Take any random 15 years from the Derby and you’ll find a selection of real top-class horses, some okay types and a few rag-ar5es. The same is true of any classic.As for the St Leger, no point in tinkering with the age as per the Irish Leger. The only thing the Leger has going for it at the moment is it’s heritage, at least leave that untouched. It probably won’t recoup its former prestige in my lifetime but I’d lose no sleep over that. Fashions change – it wasn’t that long ago that Derby winners that stayed in training at 4 were aiming for an Ascot Gold Cup as their main goal – now? Do any of us care or think that the flat season is lessened because Derby winners that race at 4 wouldn’t be seen dead in the Gold Cup? I don’t think so. The St. Leger is meeting (has met) a similar fate.
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