- This topic has 64 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
The only worry for them is that there is not a major economy in the world that is Muslim. They have huge embargo’s against the growth of any Muslim Country
What?
Saudi and Iran and others ahve had western oil revenues for decades. If theyve pissed it up the wall, whos fault is that? SThe only "embargos" on the muslim world are when countries like iran start theatening all and sundry because of their leaderships inadequacies. Is there an embargo on syria, egypt (the fourth largest recipient of us aid i recall) lebanon, saudi? What about dubai?
If muslim countrie want to trade then they should develop their industriues and services (as dubai has done to some extent) Trade is blind to culture if the goods and services are marketable. I am pretty sure that i read somewhere that there are more patents out of South korea in one year than there have been out of the muslim world in a decade. So whos fault is that?
No, Clivexx, it seems clear that it is you who are swallowing our facile, right-wing Western propaganda, whole. So, pardon me, if I take the authority of those links I provided and that of Noam Chomsky, in preference to your own.
Here is a brief excerpt from an interview Chomsky gave to Amy Goodman of Democracy Now:
(snip)
NOAM CHOMSKY: The head of NATO, Dutch, the Secretary General de Hoop Scheffer, has proposed, advocates that NATO should take the responsibility for protecting energy supplies to the West—pipelines, sea lanes, and so on.
(snip)
Well, now we’re getting to Afghanistan, which is right in the—has always been of great geostrategic importance because of its location, now more than ever because of its location relative to the energy-producing regions in the Gulf region and in Central Asia. So, yes, that’s what we’re seeing.
(snip)
AMY GOODMAN: And the energy resources in Afghanistan?
NOAM CHOMSKY: No, they’re not in Afghanistan. They’re in—mostly in the Gulf, secondarily in Central Asia. But Afghanistan is right in the middle of this system. I mean, there is a pipeline question. How powerful it is, you can speculate. But there have been longstanding plans for a pipeline from Turkmenistan in Central Asia to India, which would go—TAPI, it’s called: Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India.
"Now, that’s of significance to the United States for a number of reasons. For one thing, if it—it would run right through Afghanistan and through Kandahar province, one of the most conflicted areas. If it was established, it would, for one thing, reduce the reliance of the Central Asian states on Russia. So it would weaken their role. But more significant, it would bypass Iran. I mean, India needs energy, and the natural source is Iran. And, in fact, they’re discussing an Iran-to-India pipeline. But if you could get natural gas flowing from Central Asia to India, avoiding Iran, that would support the US policy, which is now very clear—in Obama’s case, it’s been made more concrete—of forming an alliance of regional states to oppose Iran.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/4/3/noam
You can get a glimmer of the utter monstrosity of the bombing campaign the US carried out from this piece by Chomsky:
Chmosky isnt left wing propaganda then ? Someone who denied serbain attrocities in bosnia because it suited his highly bigoted world view
And he doesnt mention that the US were in talks with the Taleban about the pipeline BEFORE the invasion
He almost mentions that the pipeline is along way from being essential. And of course it is. These countries get there gas and so on exported without it. And does the US take Gas from Uzbekistan and so on? Does it?
You think that the US is going to spend billions on a war for one pipeline thats neither here nor there?
And why did the US give the taleban a clear window to hand expel Bin laden after 9/11 ? Because they wanted to invade anyway? Come off it
And what was the US supposed to do after 9/11? Just sit there after such an attack? I suppose like the jews, they should just take it eh?
http://www.theodora.com/pipelines/balka … lines.html
It took 30 seconds to find this link. There are pipelines all over the area. Everywhere…
We know the left are lazy and too bigoted to even consider the facts, but you would think that even Chomsky would have googled that? There again, that wouldnt suit his world view would it?
And he doesnt mention that the US were in talks with the Taleban about the pipeline BEFORE the invasion
He almost mentions that the pipeline is along way from being essential. And of course it is. These countries get there gas and so on exported without it. And does the US take Gas from Uzbekistan and so on? Does it?
True, the US had no problem dealing with what they would term medieval barbarians when the same barbarians controlled the country and could have guaranteed the safety of an energy supply through their territory. The Taliban would be stronger than ever and Western tolerated if Mullah Omar hadn’t made the fatal mistake of being loyal to his old pal from the Soviet days. Bit like Saddam really.
Central Asia is awash with fossil fuel. The only options on transporting that energy are through Iran, Russia, China or Afghanistan. Those options can swiftly be narrowed down to one from a Western perspective.
Dont mistake US policy on SOURCE of supply and SECURITY of supply. There’s a big difference.
"In the case of afganistan, thats just complete rubbish"
Name one Afghan involved in any of the attacks on the west…just one?. There all Saudi’s or from Pakistan. There was no need to take on the taliban they are not people who killed the west. They allowed the Al Queda a haven but so did Pakistan and Saudi Arabia….Why not attack them also?. Brainless….planting a corrupt goverment to pretend everything is better when in fact thats rubbish
"Is this some kind of joke? Why dont you try and understand the immediate post 9.11 events before you come out with this drivel. The taleban was given every opportunity to hand over Bin laden and close all his terrorist training bases (cant belive this is being explained) and they refused. What other option was there? Aq was hand in glove with the taleban and they had just killed 3000 in new york. what were the US suppose dto do? Sit there and say "fine" , we dont want to "upset the muslims""
Didn’t the U.S. let go all of Bin Laden’s relative directly after 9/11….? They didn’t feel the need to hold them. Same applies to the Taliban….where the Taliban who hate the west going to give over a terrorist. No they weren’t so why did the U.S. not go and luck for them themselves instead of trying to take over a Country and plan false ideology in a corrupt state. Osama Bin Laden may never have been in Afghanistan his was more likely in the SWAT VALLEY in Pakistan where he has immunity from your freinds Pakistan. As i said there was no need to take out the Taliban…its abit like saying the UK should have invaded Syria because it supported the I.R.A.. Every live lost to the Taliban is a wasted life that has done nothing for the future of the Middle East.
"You srriously havent a clue have you? You have no idea of AQ’s motives. They want to wipe out the west REGARDLESS of "invasions". Dont you even listen to what they claim for themselves? Their agenda includes reclaiming Spain FFS.
The belive our mere existence is enough to attack
So what was "disgraceful" about Israel defending its population? Supposed to sit there and just accept constant attack from the racist nazi woshipping Hamas ad infinitum?
Well i suppose the jews should just take it shouldnt they eh?"
Yes and i believe what a bunch of Islam extremists want. I tend to ignore rubbish like this….its a bit like the Red neck right brigade in America wanting to get rid of Obama coz he is black. They have no way of carrying out there motives. I can’t believe the British don’t get it….its a carbon copy of Northern Ireland. People like Martin McGuiness said he wanted to kill every British Soldier in Sight in the Bogside and now he is going over to no.10 to chat to the Prime Minister over tea. You will as always cut a deal….a deal that will be more corrupt than the last.
Sure there are some really horrible elements of the Islam religion but i haven’t seen anything to scare me yet. I can name the same amount in the Christanity religion that sickens me. We need to get our own house in order before we can point the finger.
In regards Israel….Yes i do believe they have the right to defend themselves….but what they do is against Human Rights. They UN even condemed there killing of innocence. I know Hamas is a dreadful group but the Israel’s aren’t any better. They are far right views is only one step away from wiping out the palestian’s all together. They have took illegal lands and have cut off any resources entering in and out of Palestine. They have legal or moral rights to take any sort of ground of the Palestian’s without consulting them first. Most Moderate Jew’s understand this and realise that there will always be war until the Israel goverment gives some leeway to the Palestian’s.
"What?
Saudi and Iran and others ahve had western oil revenues for decades. If theyve pissed it up the wall, whos fault is that? SThe only "embargos" on the muslim world are when countries like iran start theatening all and sundry because of their leaderships inadequacies. Is there an embargo on syria, egypt (the fourth largest recipient of us aid i recall) lebanon, saudi? What about dubai?
If muslim countrie want to trade then they should develop their industriues and services (as dubai has done to some extent) Trade is blind to culture if the goods and services are marketable. I am pretty sure that i read somewhere that there are more patents out of South korea in one year than there have been out of the muslim world in a decade. So whos fault is"
Oil lol….that doesnt constitute a economy…that employs about 1million people out of a country of how many?. The very rich make the money not the ordinary guy, Saudi Arabia are America’s freinds they got a amazing country. Iran has had economic sanctions every since the Islamic Revolution….they don’t export mass oil and there oil reserves are not huge. All there oil either goes to Russia or China and not the west.
Egypt/Saudi are America’s freinds along with Dubai( who are finished due to Shiekh Mo’s ruining of there economy…absoutely gastly place Dubai….horrible place)
What services have Dubai done other than placed on a big pile of oil….there is nothing that Sheikh Mo has done that has developed any industry. Muslims countries are generally rural monster state’s with desert and a lot of cities. Poverty is strife….many don’t have electricty so dont spout Little Englander rubbish that Muslims are either lazy or stupid…they don’t have the infrustructure to develop there idea’s…they rely on Drugs and farming to make a living. You live out there and you be dead in a week!!!!!They allowed the Al Queda a haven but so did Pakistan and Saudi Arabia….Why not attack them also?.
Wallace…
1. If Pakistan and or saudi arabia were sheltering Bin Laden at that time, they would have had the full force of the US against them too. Fact is they werent going to were they? The Taleban (and there has been some evidence that they were split on this) forced the US’s hand.
2. bin Ladens relatives have little or no contact with him Thats pretty well established
3. Bin laden was definately in afganistan. Eitehr way, it was a clear base for training of AQ terrorists. That cannot be denied
4. Oil isnt trade yes. But there is no reason why the arab countries cannot diversify (look at Israels economy..). There is no prejudice against their trade
5. The UN always condems ISrael. We know why… But they couldnt condem Sri Lanka for killing 30000 citizens could they? The UN is a joke frankly. it took years for it to even tackle the question of genocide in Sudan (due to muslim countries blocking votes and so on)
Carv
The US imports no gas from that region and very little oil (if at all). There is also a major pipeline through Georgia and Turkey
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922041.html
Iran has had economic sanctions every since the Islamic Revolution….they don’t export mass oil and there oil reserves are not huge
.
Iran is the worlds 4th largest exporter
Muslims countries are generally rural monster state’s with desert and a lot of cities. Poverty is strife….many don’t have electricty so dont spout Little Englander rubbish that Muslims are either lazy or stupid…they don’t have the infrustructure to develop there idea’s.
apart from the anglophobic slur you should withdraw that until you can point out where i said they were lazy or stupid
Sure there are some really horrible elements of the Islam religion but i haven’t seen anything to scare me yet. I can name the same amount in the Christanity religion that sickens me. We need to get our own house in order before we can point the finger.
Or really?
Which christian country hangs people on the basis of their sexuality?
Which mainstream strand of christianity believes that aposthates should be executed?
Which christian country or strand believes that women who have been raped should be punished?
Which christian country bans those of a certain race from even visiting that state?
shall i go on?
"If Pakistan and or saudi arabia were sheltering Bin Laden at that time, they would have had the full force of the US against them too. Fact is they werent going to were they?"
How do you know?….they may not have sheltered him after 9/11 but they have done so before when he killed US servicemen in Africa in the 90’s.
"bin Ladens relatives have little or no contact with him Thats pretty well established"
Yet you invade Afghanistan on what evidence and then Iraq and pure lies. Flew them straight out of the country after 9/11. Beggers Belief that his own family would not be even asked a question
"Bin laden was definately in afganistan. Eitehr way, it was a clear base for training of AQ terrorists. That cannot be denied"
So is somalia…i dont see troops there
"Oil isnt trade yes. But there is no reason why the arab countries cannot diversify (look at Israels economy..). There is no prejudice against their trade"
Name one multinational in a Islamic republic….Israel survive on handouts from the USA. Why has other countries such as Iran not enjoyed the boom like there close neighbour’s India or even China….even a little boom. yes there goverment is very a disgrace but so was Blair and his Lies!!!!!.
"The UN always condems ISrael. We know why… But they couldnt condem Sri Lanka for killing 30000 citizens could they? The UN is a joke frankly. it took years for it to even tackle the question of genocide in Sudan (due to muslim countries blocking votes and so on)"
And rightly so…..i condemn them for making life as hard as possible for the Palestian’s. If it wasn’t for the USA they would be fighting there own battles. Let them stoke fires on there own and see how long the last without US Missles and Fighterjets. Why do they have to be so ignorant. Hamas are a disgrace also but the Lead should come from israel and it has not come. How can you claim that a civil war is the same as a normal war. They weren’t invaded they fighting amongst themselves. Pity the UN is a Joke towards all conflicts in the world…..most people don’t even know where Sudan is or Sri Lanka is. That is not based on spreading western values and attacking religion of another nation.
"Iran is the worlds 4th largest exporter"
Of oil which is state run and all the profits go back to the rich….very little filters down other than the men working on the plants. They need MNC’s to grow and better infrastructure. All they want to do is build a bomb which is wrong.
"apart from the anglophobic slur you should withdraw that until you can point out where i said they were lazy or stupid"
You were emplying that the Muslim world blame us for not having any proper economys. I think that is amazing considering all the countries are run by corrupt and horrific people. They are not democratic and they are in fact brutal dictatorships but the fact is that until there own people change there country we can’t expect to do it for them. The only way democracy will comes to these countries is if it is by there own people.
"Or really?
Which christian country hangs people on the basis of their sexuality?
Which mainstream strand of christianity believes that aposthates should be executed?
Which christian country or strand believes that women who have been raped should be punished?
Which christian country bans those of a certain race from even visiting that state?
shall i go on?"
That the Muslim religion…it sounds to me like you want to ban the faith. Lock them all up in Concentration Camps and force your beliefs on them. Far Right Nazi propganda or what?. This faith has more meaning that to these people than any Catholic bullshit or Anglican or whatever. They are devout and believe in what they practice and live life by there GOD’s rules. I can’t say i have any problem with this….its there religion in there countries let them do what they want. Of Course Raping and Shoting people for certain beliefs is crazy in Western society but we have a different faith completly to the Muslims. Its the fastest growing religion in the world…..There is a extreme part that has to be dealt with by the Muslims and i believe that the Arab states will take a lead on this sooner or later. After all the current leader of the UK cant even spell…or can’t write properly to a grieving mother yet can send more troops to die in Helmand. That is a disgrace!!!!!!!
Interesting Facts about Iraq War
*91,856 – 100,278 violent, non-combatant civilian deaths since the beginning of the war as of May 6, 2009
*estimated 654,965 Iraqi deaths
*5 million orphans in Iraq – nearly half of the country’s children
*Malnutrition rates have risen from 19% before the US-led invasion to a national average of 28% four years later.[300] Some 60-70% of Iraqi children are suffering from psychological problems.[301] 68% of Iraqis have no access to safe drinking water. A cholera outbreak in northern Iraq is thought to be the result of poor water quality.[302] As many as half of Iraqi doctors have left the country since 2003
That is just from the Lies of Tony Bliar and George Bush…..No wonder they hate the West. I would hate them too if a US Soldier came and raped my sister….my brother died from dirty water….are crops were destroyed by Air Strikes and my Mum and Dad Blow up by a mistaken "target"
I dont where to start with this rubbish
How do you know?….they may not have sheltered him after 9/11 but they have done so before when he killed US servicemen in Africa in the 90’s.
No they didnt. Complete crap. He was booted out of Saudi Arabia. Check your facts
Name one multinational in a Islamic republic….Israel survive on handouts from the USA. Why has other countries such as Iran not enjoyed the boom like there close neighbour’s India or even China….even a little boom.
Absolute rubbish about Isreal. The supposed handouts account for what level of Israels gdp then? Israel has developed its own industries (especially in hi tech and pharma) without US help. it is athriving economy and democracy, not a hand out state …like Pakistan and Egypt
You tell me why Iran hasnt thrived? Perhaps a clue is that as an oil producing country it has to IMPORT its petrol? Mismanagement and unaccounatble theological goverments would be my suggestion
Name one multinational in a Islamic republic…
Easy. All the US oil companies
But aside from that, Dubai is full of western multinationals. Iran was and many other countries still are. I dont get this point at all?
Perhaps some multinationals are reluctant to go there because they "dont wish to upset the muslims"…as you suggest..
I will completely ignore last paragraph other than to say that anyone with liberal values will naturally be repulsed by the more fundamental aspects of Islam
I agree that Democracy has to come from within but if we can help the process then why not? Iraq was badly handled as much as anything else and the US did not do enough homework on the consequences. The problem to me seems to be that actual desire fro democracy seems to be weak in the arab world (apart from Iran, which isnt arab anyway, and is now a beacon of hope).
"Easy. All the US oil companies
But aside from that, Dubai is full of western multinationals. Iran was and many other countries still are. I dont get this point at all?"
Beside Oil?…are u a oil man?….for goodness sake….what about everything we buy from shops…Cars/TV’S/Toys/Clothes/Kitchen supplies/Food?…any of that made in Iraq or Iran?. The whole point of this arguement is that Islamic republic economies can not thrive due to them not be Pro USA. Its simple….you cant even get a TV into Palestine without the Israeli’s approving it.
"I agree that Democracy has to come from within but if we can help the process then why not? Iraq was badly handled as much as anything else and the US did not do enough homework on the consequences. The problem to me seems to be that actual desire fro democracy seems to be weak in the arab world (apart from Ir"
Yes they don’ want White men involved….they hate us…they despise us….they would rather Kill you than talk to you. IF they don’t want democracy tough on them. Its there choice and there country. The only think US/Brit Soldier’s are going is putting themselves in harm way for nothing. As soon as they leave the place will be back to civil war and Drugs trade….I am disgusted Karsai is a Prime Minister of Afghanistan considering he is a vote frauded on numerous occasions. Once you leave they will hang him from the Baghdad with his throat slit and his family all stuck in jail. He is a Traitor to most and will suffer eventually from this. Shocking in a way but its the way the arab world works
"No they didnt. Complete crap. He was booted out of Saudi Arabia. Check your facts"
Yes he was but the my point is that you can’t believe the saudi’s for ****…..the same as the pakistan. They don’t even know whats going on in there own country. Osama could have been in the swat valley as his is supposed to have been in 01….yet there only going in there in 09. 8 years later.
"Absolute rubbish about Isreal. The supposed handouts account for what level of Israels gdp then? Israel has developed its own industries (especially in hi tech and pharma) without US help. it is athriving economy and democracy, not a hand out state …like Pakistan and Egypt"
$3billion per year…and it’s paid upfront instead of quarterly installments as it is with everyone else, so they can make even more off the interest.
The $3 billion per year, accounts for about a fifth of America’s foreign aid budget. This is despite Israel being a wealthy industrial country with a per capita income about the same as South Korea or Spain.
Also, Israel is the only recipient that does not have to disclose how it spends the money, so it can therefore be used for purposes which the U.S. opposes, like building settlements in the West Bank.
This year, Israel will receive $2.4 billion in military aid from the U.S.
Israel asked for a gradual increase in the aid over a 10-year period at the tune of $50 million per year. At the end of the 10 years, Israel will receive $2.9 billion annually in military assistance from the U.S.
This is the fact in U.S. Budget of 08/09
Also Israel gets a huge number of American Coporations to set up in Israel for "Certain Tax Breaks"
"I will completely ignore last paragraph other than to say that anyone with liberal values will naturally be repulsed by the more fundamental aspects of Islam"
I accept there religion….i am a catholic and not a Muslim, i have no intention of every becoming a Muslim. I don’t practice a faith all i have his morals…and they will guide me. And yes i do find some Rules horrific but its not my place to condemn people who have a stronger religious belief than i could ever fathom.
I will never bow to Right Wing Bullshit….It was the Irish in the 20’s Jews in the 40’s Blacks in the 60’s Russians in the 80’s and now the Muslims in the 2000+.
Obama is trying his hardest to do his best to build back bridges and fair on him. Takes much more guts not to go to war than going to war. Afterall you are fighting farmers who are part time soldier’s and losing. Its why the French didn’t go and its why the Russians didn’t go….they had done there research unfortunetly the Ignorance of Bush and Blair believing that because there American and UK that they can do whatever they like….well the chickens have come home to roost and its on there consience for the rest of there lives.
Beside Oil?…are u a oil man?….for goodness sake….what about everything we buy from shops…Cars/TV’S/Toys/Clothes/Kitchen supplies/Food?…any of that made in Iraq or Iran?. The whole point of this arguement is that Islamic republic economies can not thrive due to them not be Pro USA. Its simple….you cant even get a TV into Palestine without the Israeli’s approving it.
You are all over the place. multinationals go where the goods can be made best and cheapest. They are not in the slightest bit interested in the culture of the country and the US goverment will not tell them what to do. How many irish companies are investing in arabia then eh?
There is no embargo on the arab countries. Apart from Iran, show me where tehre are embargos and laws preventing trade and investment in egypt, saudi, jordan and so on?
And i want you to tell me what restrictions there are on western businesses in Dubai. And Abu dhabi. and so on
And then you tell us that Israel would be nothing without the US handout and then the US is handing out money to "rich" Israel. Which is it? $12billion is a fraction of gdp regardless
and then this
accept there religion….i am a catholic and not a Muslim, i have no intention of every becoming a Muslim. I don’t practice a faith all i have his morals…and they will guide me. And yes i do find some Rules horrific but its not my place to condemn people who have a stronger religious belief than i could ever fathom.
That was your answer to my question asking if you condemn the punishment of rape victims and the hnaging of gays
How anyone can say "not for me to say, its their religion" is beyond me. What if that belief extended to genocide? Just their "religion" is it?
Total shambles
Clive well just ban the religion then and join the BNP
Stop supporting the armed forces over there if your beliefs are of Right wing Nazi Ideology that your country fought to end.
Just seen a report on BBC that said that there is mainstream sexual abuse by British Soldier of Iraqi’s. A man killed in british custody with 93 injuries. Absoutely disgraceful.
As the great Joe Kennedy said "last one in the pool is a republican" and i live by that motto.
I won’t be debating this anymore with you as you obviously believe that Islam is a a disgrace and i can’t or will never bow to right wing bull.
Stupid comments. Not worth responding to. You have been all over the place with your dismal grasp of the facts and economic illiteracy
But is that the Joe kennedy who supported Hitler? The "great man" ? And you are calling me a nazi?
Quite significant that you would not condem genocide if carried out in the name of "deeply felt" religion. Still you were backed into a corner there as those without any moral compass always are
And as expected, the latent anglophbia comes out once again deosnt it?
I am currently studying India for my thesis….and how there economy has grown. I certainly know what i am talking about
Would’t be suprised that you said Joe Kennedy was a nazi….that’s what the Protestants in the US try to stir up because he was Catholic. Wonder why his son’s fought against the Nazi’s?
I agree with you on some issue’s but you seem to be implying the Islam is a horrific religion and i have a one freind that is from Pakistan and i can’t or will not say i have ever expierenced this supposed hate against the west.
You want to westernize the world….i don’t. I quite like different cultures….Islam is a world religion and there are some very extreme parts that need to be got rid of.
1.57 Billion Muslims……and growing everytime.
Are you rascist? where does your morals come in when a British Soldier held a 16 year old boy at knife point while another raped him?. You are haven’t answered any of my points about all the Murders and Killing of civilians…surely your morals are in question. I suppose you will say its "war" so we can kill who we like?….Ironic? I am sure the Afghans will be more than happy to call what you are doing as genoicide?.
"And as expected, the latent anglophbia comes out once again deosnt it?"
First learn how to spell doesn’t and next thing where is anglophobia? or what every word you make up for that. I can’t remember when i called the Britain evil or horrible?. I called you a little englander because you were being ignorant about Islam.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.