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Yet we take no action against Saudi Arabia, a regime with a human rights record which makes the Taliban look decidedly liberal
Sorry Paul, That is not even close to the truth
Graham,
"If they carry weapons openly then they are not civilians i’d assume".
Weapons in Iraq/Afghanistan are as common as mobile phones over here and they are carried openly out of the major conurbations. They are for sale openly in the street bazaars. Most families have at least an AK47 to defend themselves. Most homes have stashes of weapons including grenades, RPGs etc. If I lived there I would carry a weapon for self defence. Indeed most of the fighting is really from Crime i.e. blood feuds, stealing from each other, drug trafficking etc rather than related to insurgency. There is a bounty on any ISAF forces soldiers’ life. In Iraq this was $10,000. With so much poverty you can understand that is an attractive offer.
Most of the killings of Afghans by far are by Taleban or AQ deliberately targeting civilians. Any ISAF killings of civilians are not intentional.
Yet we take no action against Saudi Arabia, a regime with a human rights record which makes the Taliban look decidedly liberal
Sorry Paul, That is not even close to the truth
You look at any human rights reports for Saudi Arabia and then look at the reports of punishments inflicted by the Taliban and I challenge you to spot any difference.
What makes the actions of the Saudi’s worse is the barbarism is endorsed by the state – a state we as a nation seem quite happy to court.
Paul
Saudi arabia is a vile state (although less os than Taleban Afganistan for sure) but it has taken actio against AQ
the taleban did not
No disagree with you there is no difference between the Saudis and the Taliban – the perceived "difference" is because the Saudi’s are sitting on a bl**dy big oil well, so we turn a blind eye.
The Saudi’s may have made a "token" effort to be seen to be fighting AQ but the reality is AQ has too much support from those in the country who hold the real power. Look at the number of AQ leaders who are from the top Saudi families.
Paul
At the end of the day, if OBL and his disgusting sidekick (who has relished the execution of minors) had escaped to or been in saudi at the time of 9/11, he would have been handed over immediately. there would have been no requirement to invade. The state there simply does not endorse AQ
Thats the difference
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THe irony is that we say we are in Afghanistan etc. to stop attacks here. An attack here would most likely lose us a few hundred lives tops. But being in Afghanistan has resulted in the loss of hundreds of troops lives and no end of innocents have died in Afghanistan (but that’s ok, they’re only poor, primitive Muslims, they don’t have real feelings). You can guarantee that far more innocent lives will be lost ‘protecting’ lives than would have been lost by doing nothing
People will say "it’s not just about the numbers, it’s about principle/protecting our way of life, we can’t let them win" blah blah. But that doesn’t really wash. If we didn’t stick our noses in the business of such countries they’d have no reason to attack us anyway. The best thing we could say to Afghanistan/The Middle East is "sorry for sticking our noses in your business over the decades, won’t do it anymore. We’re pulling out of Afghanistan, Iraq etc. This may mean the Taliban etc. regain power and whilst we are not a fan of their principles, it has to be your own internal struggle to remove them. Just as we have had our own internal struggles to wins our own freedoms over the centuries. Goodbye. PS: Now that we have done the above please stop plotting to attack us. PPS: if you continue trying to destabilise democracies such as Pakistan we will be back"
In reality I’m not 100% sure if I am anti-Afghan war or not; I’m just thinking out loud above regarding my doubts; I used to be for it, but the more I reflect on it the more I think we are wasting out time. Obviously the above is never going to happem; far too sensible
Totally misplaced thinking there Hard held
You are almost suggesting that we could live with a "hundreds" being killed by terrorists and just shrug our shoulders? Is this some kind of joke?
The idea that AQ only attacked the west (and would have continued to attack the west) only because of Iraq is ludicrous given that 9/11 occured sometime before Iraq. AQ had no time for Saddam anyway
You have no understanding of AQs agenda and aims. They would not simply leave us alone if we left them alone (and why shouldnt western people be in arabia anyway? what sort of world do you want?)They believe that we are targets because of our very EXISTENCE
And given the resources, they would not restrict attacks to a "few hundred" Was 9/11 a few hundred?
it has to be your own internal struggle to remove them
Its not that simple is it really? Would you sit back and allow a Pol pot type regime slaughter thousands in Belgium say?
Totally misplaced thinking there Hard held
You are almost suggesting that we could live with a "hundreds" being killed by terrorists and just shrug our shoulders? Is this some kind of joke?
The idea that AQ only attacked the west (and would have continued to attack the west) only because of Iraq is ludicrous given that 9/11 occured sometime before Iraq. AQ had no time for Saddam anyway
You have no understanding of AQs agenda and aims. They would not simply leave us alone if we left them alone (and why shouldnt western people be in arabia anyway? what sort of world do you want?)They believe that we are targets because of our very EXISTENCE
And given the resources, they would not restrict attacks to a "few hundred" Was 9/11 a few hundred?
it has to be your own internal struggle to remove them
Its not that simple is it really? Would you sit back and allow a Pol pot type regime slaughter thousands in Belgium say?
I’m not seriously saying we should do nothing. I’m just throwing some not particularly well thought out thoughts out there on a hungover Sunday morning. Like I say I’m not at all sure that we should pull out but sometimes one can’t help but think that we’re getting this very wrong somewhere
The idea that AQ only attacked the west (and would have continued to attack the west) only because of Iraq is ludicrous given that 9/11 occured sometime before Iraq. AQ had no time for Saddam anyway
9/11 was on 11th September 2001 the Iraq war began 2nd August 1990 – by my calculations a tad over 11 years before!!!
Let me pose a question – lets just play along and presume, against all the odds, a stable government is formed in Afghanistan and the Taliban and AQ are driven out. Do you think that would stop AQ? Of course not – they would simply move elsewhere and train – so do we then go and invade that country. And say that country was Pakistan – do we then risk a nuclear comfrontation?
AQ is a threat but not one that can be defeated by "conventional" means.
AQ was not and never has been a response to the first Iraq war. For a start, it was operational before then and secondly its aims go way beyond simply reacting to supposed western inteference
The bali bombings were an obvious case in point as is their constant rhetoric about reclaiming Spain
In fact, AQ was relatively late in banging on about Israel because they viewed Palestinians as insufficiently islamic (and also too many christians involved)
The problem with the whole thing for me is that we are going to pull out when the Afghans have a stable government .. I don’t believe that they are capable of having one.
About 1/3 of all the votes cast in the last election where fraudulent. The establishment that we set up doesn’t inside Afghanistan work because of it’s corruption.
If, they can’t set up a proper government we might never be able to pull out, ever, unless we change the term of engagement.
I’m beginning to think that not one British life is worth sacrificing for the whole of Afghanistan, let them stew in the cess-pit that they have created.
On another note, there has been no evidence presented that PROVES that international terrorism comes from Afghanistan .. the terrorist attacks in this country where planned and carried out by people from Leeds.
It’s all about what they call Pipelineistan, the ‘stans’, of which Afghanistan is a part. An oil pipeline through it. Although, despite denials, apparently, Afghanistan also has its own oil and gas reserves. The maps of terrorism and of oil are virtually interchangeable.
http://www.atimes.com/c-asia/DA26Ag01.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/di … 89×6953604
Love the picture of Uncle Sam and the caption!
http://original.antiwar.com/engelhardt/ … es-af-pak/
Well, you only have to Google pipelineistan or search Democratic Underground for reams on the subject.
Incidentally, the president of our friend, Uzbekistan, is, I believe, the character who has his political opponents boiled alive and parents tortured in front of their children and /or vice versa (a good old Pinochet initiative!).
In geopolitics, in particular, they play for keeps. Empire and torture always go together.
On another note, there has been no evidence presented that PROVES that international terrorism comes from Afghanistan
whilst i agree with some of your post Dave, it was an AQ base for training (at the very least). Of course it was a magnet and a source for terrorism. The taleban fully endorsed a philosiphy (and acted upon) where "non believers" must simply be exterminated.
Grimes. The pipeline is not essential (it would carry a tiny fraction of the worlds gas) and it was certainly not an economic argument for staging the war. Simply doesnt add up and is simply left wing paranoia without any economic basis
From my point of view as a Irishman.
First of all i believe both wars in Iraq and Afgan*(quick) are all illegal occupations. Both have no link to 9/11 or 7/7 or any illegal attacks on western cities.
Al Qaeda are a group that operates in Somalia and the mountain area that border Pakistan and Afghanistan. There was absoutely no need to go into Afghanistan and attack and bring down the taliban. As much as they were a horrible group they are Muslims and one thing Muslims don’t like is to see white men telling them what to do. They should been allowed to kill and mutilate like all the other Dicators in Sudan to Zimbabwe. This was not a crusade against oppressive regimes its a war against people who killed U.S./U.K. Civilians.
What you have now done is brought waring factions of the muslim religion together to fight the white man…..which is amazing considering there feud goes back Many more years that any other feud. Also you go into Iraq for Oil reserves which was absoutely crazy idea and now you have a country that is going to fall apart at the seams once the occupation leaves if ever.
Afgan’s kicked the Russian’s out after 10 years and they will kick you out aswell whether you like it or not. You then go and make a war on Drugs the main income for Afghan’s which kills there income. Where else will they get food for there families? Join Taliban or worse Al Queda. The fact that George Bush said he doesn’t care where Osama Bin Laden is…is a disgrace.
Its shows that Osama was not the target but in fact the oil reserves in Iraq was the main goal aswell as trying to spread western value’s to places that despise us. Then you see the brutal Murder’s by troops of the civilian population and there is no wonder that Group’s want to wipe out the west.
What the west has done is open a tea pot of hatred that will spread in all Eastern Countries. The only worry for them is that there is not a major economy in the world that is Muslim. They have huge embargo’s against the growth of any Muslim Country. If China/India go alone with the likes of Sauda Arabia….then we are in for more trouble that we can handle.
The main problem is that Israel is a disgrace….and continue to use the past to justify there motives. I once heard a Jew quoting from the Bible to justify a Isreali State…Ironic?. If we attack Iran we have started a war on Islam….or a full blown attack on Islam.
We keep giving these groups more and more reason to hate us. If the Brits/US just run away they have done the right thing. Chase the real guys that hurt you in Al Queda who have strong links with your good freinds the Saudi’s and maybe visit the guys who paid them US Dollar’s to fight the russians.
The war is a dead rubber….you fully got what you deserved due to the policy making of your leaders….British/US deaths have been for nothing….nothing what so ever just plain ignorance of Bush/Blair.
I surprised they want NATO to help….the Brits/US went against every regulation in the book for the Iraq war and now expect other nations to bail them out. The cheek of that is quite astonishing. If i was the Italian or French i would say.
"You got urself in this mess now get yourself out!"
Both have no link to 9/11 or 7/7 or any illegal attacks on western cities.
In the case of afganistan, thats just complete rubbish
Al Qaeda are a group that operates in Somalia and the mountain area that border Pakistan and Afghanistan. There was absoutely no need to go into Afghanistan and attack and bring down the taliban
Is this some kind of joke? Why dont you try and understand the immediate post 9.11 events before you come out with this drivel. The taleban was given every opportunity to hand over Bin laden and close all his terrorist training bases (cant belive this is being explained) and they refused. What other option was there? Aq was hand in glove with the taleban and they had just killed 3000 in new york. what were the US suppose dto do? Sit there and say "fine" , we dont want to "upset the muslims"
Then you see the brutal Murder’s by troops of the civilian population and there is no wonder that Group’s want to wipe out the west
You srriously havent a clue have you? You have no idea of AQ’s motives. They want to wipe out the west REGARDLESS of "invasions". Dont you even listen to what they claim for themselves? Their agenda includes reclaiming Spain FFS.
The belive our mere existence is enough to attack
So what was "disgraceful" about Israel defending its population? Supposed to sit there and just accept constant attack from the racist nazi woshipping Hamas ad infinitum?
Well i suppose the jews should just take it shouldnt they eh?
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