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Hi
Adding my tuppenceworth here.
The winner is obvio a v good horse.
The 2nd-which I bet at long odds on BF is also a v good horse as his run at newbury proved, he has improved drastically from 2 to 3.
On the CC issue I cannot believe the connections will want to run at a mile again as I still dont think he is a miler.
He was held together & his high cruising speed helped him, but he didnt find much when let down & Dt was tiring & coming back to him.
DT will beat CC over a mile 9/10 IMHO.
Why run CC over a mile when its patently obvious he has the class to run amok in the sprinting division or in any 6/7f races.
Hannon has had plenty champions & for him to say CC is the best-by a long way-says it all.
I would go as far as saying CC will never get beaten over 6/7f again & only a mile & possibly 5f will see him beaten.
I will be speaking out my wallet whenever he runs & hope to achieve a few odds against prices before his brilliance is universally known.Of course the time won’t reflect the slow pace. If you go slow early on and then sprint, everything will balance out.
This is simply wrong.
So how come the 2000 Guineas was only run in 0.5 seconds slower than standard? Surely everyone (bar reet) accepts that the first 4-5 furlongs were run at a canter.
Look at last year’s Derby time ffs. Only 1.24 seconds slower than standard. They crawled and then they sprinted. The time always balances out. It’s the sectional times that matter.
How i interpreted this years 2000gns result is that the race was run in a very good time,the way it was run enabled 6f horses to get the mile,the 1st 4 home wont get a yard over a mile,the 5th and 6th home are both 11/2m horses (Elusive, and St Nick) and because the last 2 furlongs were obviously covered in a hell of a time the stayers couldn"t quicken with the sprinters! Simple as that! Watch
Viscount Nelson
over a 11/2m,you will see a different horse and Kieran will ride him in the Derby too!
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Zarkava
I’ve never disputed that the first half of the race was run at a steady pace, where I do differ is when it’s claimed that the race wasn’t a proper test overall. A slow early pace and a slow time might produce a false result, the same early in a race run in a good time wouldn’t, imo.
As I said earlier, my own hand-timings show that most of the speed was in the 6th & 7th furlong with the leaders slowing down in the 8th, which hardly constitutes a sprint.
The running of the horse you mention, Elusive Pimpernel, exactly confirms that view – outpaced and ridden along from over 3 out, yet manages to pass 5 or 6 horses in the final furlong.Interesting comments guys. Something about SNA’s run wasn’t quite right – certainly the slow-fast timings wouldn’t have been perfect for him, given he’s more middle distance based.
But, for all that he only finished 3 1/2 lengths back against milers. To put this in perspective against other AOB horses / collmore stallions and their performance in the 2000 guineas.
duke of Marmalade (4th / 2.5 lengths)
RVW (4th / 2.5 lengths)
Giants Causeway (2nd / 3.5 lengths)
Oratorio (4th / 2 1/4 lengths)
Mastercraftsman (5th / 5 1/4 lengths)Some perspective really & shows he may still be top class. He actually finished about the same distance behind as Giants Causeway did in his guineas & we know how that ended up.
On the issue of CC, I remember the same argument came out of the Henrythenavigator Guineas about Ravens Pass. Many forumites (including myself) felt that he didn’t stay a mile, which in time we saw he did. Perhaps Richard Hannon should persist with the horse over a mile and aim him at the Breeders Cup Classic.
JohnJ
I’d bet that 999/1000 races has a slower final furlong than the one preceding it. Horses get tired and they get slower. There was a very interesting thing about 4 years ago after George W won the Guineas. They showed a graph noting a horse’s speed over a mile, how it got gradually slower and slower furlong to furlong and that the whip was used to galvanise the horse into running faster.
And in comparison, George was able to produce a turn of foot because he was able to sustain a faster gallop for longer. But his final furlong was by far his slowest.
Re. Elusive Pimpernel, I just think by that point Elusive Pimpernel was just staying on and had more pace than St. Nick.
Handicapper has rated Makfi’s win highly, best since King’s Best.
Looking forward to seeing the winner at Ascot, would be surprised to see Canford Cliffs reverse form, be good to see how Steinbeck performs in the Irish.
The handicapper must be blinded by his winning ticket. 2nd-8th covered by 3 lengths. Compare that to the distances of the last few Guineas.
Pardon my French but he’s a f***ing idiot. Maybe Makfi is that good, but to rate it that highly with that pace and that blanket finish is farcical and laughable.
The handicapper must be blinded by his winning ticket. 2nd-8th covered by 3 lengths. Compare that to the distances of the last few Guineas.
Pardon my French but he’s a f***ing idiot. Maybe Makfi is that good, but to rate it that highly with that pace and that blanket finish is farcical and laughable.
But, in theory, Mafki could have gone through exactly the same fractions and won with a stronger pace, despite not changing anything. If you had a pacemaker setting off 5 lengths clear, and dragging the rest of the field along, there’s nothing to prove Mafki wouldn’t have produced an identical performance, is there? All that’s happening is the margins between each horse are greater because certain horses between 2nd and 8th can’t sustain their runs off a stronger pace, and actually run worse in terms of a finishing position and lengths beaten, or am I reading it wrong?
Musicfan – we might also produce a list of Champion 2yo’s, winter favourites for the 2000, that simply failed to train on. Time will tell which way SNA goes but I’m on record with my theory on the matter since before the 2000 and I’m sticking with it.
It’s interesting what connections do with an out and out 2yo in the name of it’s stud value. They’ll let the hype ride and once it starts to dissipate they’ll take a sharp exit as best they can. Only natural when the high point of the stock has passed.
But punters still let bookies make it favourite for everything.
Well, I believe SNA did train on, he has no right to win a Grp 1 over a mile on breeding, it will take a smart horse to beat him at Epsom. On the issue of how good/bad people believe the Guineas was, I think time will tell it was an a very good renewal, the second and third horses a very smart.
JohnJ
Did anyone read the back page of yesterdays Independent sport section? Supposedly, Sir Peter O’Sullevan slipped into a bookies to have a bet on Makfi after a tip off from the Marqesa de Moratella [who just happens to be the trainers mother in law].
Yes, I read that a few days ago. O’Sullevan would have had a bet on Makfi anyway as he is a great Francophile. I wonder whether he ever uses betfair?
The Prix Djebel winner was still at 85 on betfair 10 minutes before the Guineas, ffs.
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