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Joni as for ‘out of Treve’s comfort zone’ I was actually referring to the fact that she actually travelled out of her own country…
No, you clearly weren’t “she raced out of her comfort zone in the greatest race in the world”, unless you think the Prince of Wales is the greatest in the world.
I did state Treve had raced outside of her country…So basically within that sentence I was saying she had raced out of her comfort zone and in the greatest race in the world. It was meant as 2 separate meanings as for the Champions Stakes being a better race than the Arc well so happens the Champions stks is 10 f and the Arc is 12f which Frankel may have struggled to run.
And, to be honest, I really couldn’t give a damn about Frankel going for the Champions Stakes rather than the Arc in his 4-year old season. The Champions was a much much better race that year. In the Arc, he would have had to beat Solemia (who?), with Orfevre having thrown the race away. Just to emphasise the point of how weak that race was, Masterstroke, Haya Landa and Yellow And Green completed the placings, not sure how many of us even remember these. Instead, Frankel went on to face the second highest-rated horse in the world back then in Cirrus Des Aigles (same rating as Black Caviar at the time I believe) and Nathaniel. Cirrus himself would have probably won that Arc were he not a gelding, and had won the previous Champions Stakes against So You Think on ground clearly favouring the latter. As a matter of fact, wasn’t the Champions Stakes the highest rated horserace in the world that year according to the newly established Longines rankings?
It’s all here Jolly. As you know, even Black Caviar’s trainer had to throw his hands up – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKQ4xTCTDtE
Joni, Moody is entitled to his opinion, other non Australians have stated that Black Caviar was the best horse in the world, but it is not about that it is about comparing a Queen Anne to an Arc… Joni it’s no use arguing with you in regards to Frankel, you have an unnatural love for him, I wouldn’t be surprised if you have booked yourself in to be served by him this season…
One thing I’ve never understood is the idea that racing outside of a horses native country somehow improves it’s merit as a racehorse. It simply doesn’t make any sense. Had Frankel beat Cirrus Des Aigles at Longchamp instead of at Ascot how is that any better a performance?
It’s 2015 now, in order to get to France from the UK you don’t even have to board a plane or sail on a boat.
Well let me explain, because it is harder, Yeats looked very,very ordinary in Australia, was he a better horse than that yes, but he wasn’t on his home turf.
Joni as for ‘out of Treve’s comfort zone’ I was actually referring to the fact that she actually travelled out of her own country…
Wow – The Tatling comes in with a Post of the Year contender straight away.
The Dettori love-in is rather grating. Dettori’s final years at Godolphin highlighted the weaknesses in his character. When the operation hit a trough and was lacking in star horses, Dettori’s riding standards declined, his love of the sport shrivelled and his professionalism went out of the window. For such a brattish individual to be hailed as a hero must really grind on the journeyman jockeys who toil away for thirty years without grumbling.
Dettori’s Arc ride was fantastic without doubt and he has been riding superbly all season. It’s just a shame he couldn’t maintain these high standards when the chips were down.
Don’t know about post of the year… But it depends who you are…I thought for last years ‘The Grey Gatsby’ post would have taken a bit of beating…. I suppose being the one and only horse from there that the author ever highlighted adds to that…
Treve was a great race mare but her optimum conditions were 12F with soft ground, which made her rather one dimensional as a racehorse – her first Arc win was no doubt her best performance but any race that is run on very soft ground has to be viewed (form wise) with some scepticism as we know only a small number of horse can cope with those type of race conditions.
For me if she had won a 3rd Arc, she would of held a unique place in racing history but personally I don’t think it would have made her the greatest mare of all time – for various reasons there are a few other mares in the last 40 yrs alone that I would not rate Treve above and they are as follows:
Unfortunately they are all missing a couple of Arc’s… I’m afraid a Hollywood Invitational,Prince Of Wales or a HK Vase,etc,etc,etc just doesn’t cut it against the best quality race in the world…
Dahlia
1973: Prix Saint-Alary, Irish Oaks, King George, Prix Neil & Washington DC International 1973.
1974: King George, Benson & Hedges Gold Cup (now Juddmonte International), Man of War Stakes, Canadian International & Grand Prix de Saint Cloud
1975: Benson & Hedges Gold Cup
1976: Hollywood Invitational Handicap.
Voted European Horse of the Year in 1973, United Kingdon Horse of the Year 1973 & 74 and US Champion Turf Horse 1974Allez France
1973: French 1000g, French Oaks & Prix Vermeille
1974: Prix d’Ispahan, Prix Ganay, Prix Foy & Arc
1975: Prix Ganay, Prix Foy & Prix Dollar
Voted 1973 French Champion Three Year Old Filly of the Year, French Horse of the Year and Older Horse of the Year for 1974Oh So Sharp
1984: Solario Stakes & Fillies Mile
1985: 1000g, Oaks & St Leger (Fillies Triple Crown)
Voted European Three Year Old Filly of the Year 1985Ouija Board
2004: Oaks, Irish Oaks & Breeders Cup Filly & Mare Turf
2005: Princess Royal Stakes & Hong Kong Vase
2006: Prince of Wales Stakes, Nassau Stakes & Breeders Cup Filly & Mare Turf
Voted 2004 European Champion Three Year Old Filly, European Horse of the Year (2004 & 2006), Eclipse Award for Outstanding Female Turf Horse (2004 & 2006) and European Champion Older Horse 2006Zarkava
2007: Prix Marcel Boussac
2008: French 1000g, French Oaks, Prix Vermeille & Arc
Voted 2008 European Champion 3 Year Old Filly and European Horse of the YearGoldikova
2008: Prix Rothschild, Prix du Moulin & Breeders Cup Mile
2009: Prix Rothschild, Falmouth Stakes, Prix Jacques Le Marois & Breeders Cup Mile
2010: Prix Rothschild, Prix d’Ispahan, Queen Anne Stakes. Prix de la Foret, Breeders Cup Mile
2011: Prix Rothschild & Prix d’Ispahan
Voted European Champion Older Horse (2009 & 2010), European Horse of the Year 2010 and American Champion Female Turf Horse (2009 & 2010)The interesting thing to note is that Timeform’s top rated mare is one by the name of Star of India on 138, who won five races at 5F in 1955. I haven’t been able to find anything about her online so I am not sure what she did that merited such a high rating.
How was running over her optimum trip in her own country “running out of her comfort zone” Jolly? With the greatest respect my dear Australian friend we all know from your history on here that Frankel bashing was your thing. There was always the Black Caviar V Frankel thing. Fair enough mate. Though even your own Peter Moody was blown away by THAT performance at Royal Ascot. If you REALLY look deep inside yourself can you HONESTLY say with hand on heart that your opinions are not swayed just EVER SO SLIGHTLY by the fact that you are Aussie through and through and the thought that the greatest ever racehorse came from Pommie Land is an open sore that will stay with you til your final day? Come on Jolly – be honest.
Joni for a start Frankel only had 14 runs, Black Caviar went on to win another 11, she had more group 1 wins then he had starts. You are delusional Joni to rate Frankel’s races above the quality of Treve’s. They didn’t have the balls to leave their own back yard, Treve and Black Caviar did. Joni you are a pom, so a French or Australian horse would never rate on top in your opinion… So You Think won 14 from 23 and 10 group 1’s he raced in 6 countries at least they took them on…Freddy Head saying the ride and instructions were bad and too much to win an Arc, spot on ! His sister knows her instructions were suicidal now but it’s hard to admit you have just thrown away an Arc ‘she had every chance’ … As Freddy said horses were not making up ground from back in the field that day and given a normal run she wins the Arc…
For those saying prizemoney is not a barometer make sure you have a logical argument. Treve never raced in the ‘sandpit’, never had 60 starts like a Red Cadeaux. Treve raced only in France and England, Treve’s first Arc win was better than Frankel’s best, she had a horrid run and just blew them away in an Arc !!! Timeform has always been biased to English/Irish horses. Now remember my point Treve had a couple less starts and double the prizemoney because she raced out of her comfort zone in the greatest race in the world !!! Her prizemoney has come from dual Arc wins !!! Lets say an Arc is a 10 out of ten, Frankel’s best quality race could only be rated a 7 or maybe an 8 in comparison. So remember this is a comparison between Frankel and Treve not some horse who has had umpteen starts to acquire more prizemoney. Apart from the Arc and a few of races Europe doesn’t have the prizemoney to match the likes of the UAE, Australia etc so the biggest prizemoney there usually means the best races. Now my point is not that Treve is the best horse to have ever raced, it is probably hard to give her that title, though she put in the best performance I have ever seen winning her first Arc. Whilst Frankel was brilliant I think the fact that he never travelled outside of England is against him, it can look easy on your home turf, much more difficult to travel and win.
Quite clearly a sense of humour is in short supply down under.
Although, whoever decided a handicap is worthy of Group 1 status is definitely having a laugh.
You need to learn something about racing before putting stupid comments forward…
Frankie gives the winner the run of the race from a bad draw and Jarnet butchers Treve, shows how fickle racing is. The mare had problems when they sacked him off her, Jarnet gets on and gets lucky, rides her badly but still good enough to win a couple of Arc’s Frankie would have won 3 on her…
Not sure any jockey would have won her today Jolly. She just didn’t quite fire on that ground. I was at Ascot where she ran a similar race on similar ground. In my opinion she is a great horse on soft ground and just a very good one on faster. I think the best horse (on that ground) won. He had a terrible draw but Frankie has given him the perfect ride
Joni, she covered a few lengths more than the winner in the run so we will have to agree to disagreeI agree TYF The Melbourne cup was not a race for Yeats, early on the English/ Irish horses were of his ilk. It took a while but then it was realised that 90% of the time you need a horse with a bit of zip to win it. These days you need a horse that can either win or go close in a Group 1 10 to 12 furlongs, whilst that isn’t always the case it is more so rather than not. The great mare Makybe Diva won the cup with only 2 lbs less. These days in the cup you can wipe the horses that havn’t had a lead up run here in 90% of cases.
You didn’t put your foot in it there, you fell right into it… Yeats won 4 Ascot Gold Cups and couldn’t get warm in the Melbourne Cup. Yes there is a need to correct you and help you, the Melbourne Cup is no bumper, you obviously know little about racing…
A bit of a silly comment. Yeats was a close 7th in 2006, giving upwards of 7lbs (and in most cases over a stone) to every horse who finished in front of him. That came at the end of an arduous season, versus handicap snips trained for the day, on a dog track that would not have played to his strengths. It was one of the most notable handicap performances from a flat stayer in my lifetime.
Don’t be stupid and call Flemington a dog track, Yeats was very ordinary, remember before the race according to there, he was going to eat those ‘snips’. If that is one of the most notable handicap performances you have seen well that is laughable…Yeats was not a close 7th the Japanese donkey licked the rest he was a very ordinary 8 lengths from the winner whom he only gave 5 pounds !!!! And those Japanese ‘snips’ are the best staying horses in the world… At least try to be accurate in comments…
And no…That’s not the way it works, if you give a horse cover ,there is more chance of them settling rather than leaving them out in the open, as for her trainer saying that I think when she see’s the replay her mind may change…
Well, I guess her trainer can’t a read a race then coz’ she just said on French TV that she couldn’t find any excuse today and that Golden Horn was just too good today anyway. Stop acting so butthurt, Treve got herself beaten by refusing to settle. Jarnet is an excellent horseman and rarely races outwide or produce his horse early. Treve would have pulled even more if left in the pack.
You need to educate yourself about racing or how to read a race, obviously you know next to nothing…Me butthurt (that is so American, please speak proper English now…), I watched a little game of Rugby here my time this morning, no hurting ‘butt’ here …
Well, the question won’t be asked now. As I said, she’s a super talent, but too vulnerable.
Yes vulnerable to being ridden badly, no question to answer, she has proven how good she is…
No doubt she’s proven how good she is, but can’t see people calling her the greatest ever no matter how much you try to convince yourself of it. For once, Ribot himself won two Arcs plus a King George all whilst staying undefeated in 16 runs.
Well anyone who can read a race can tell you today would have been 3 Arc’s if she hadn’t covered lengths more ground than the winner…7 hours ago
She has proven that she is completely dependent on certain conditions, too. You can’t come into the ‘greatness’ equation if you are so one-dimensional.
So you didn’t watch the race!!!! You didn’t see she was 4 and 5 deep all the way whilst the winner had the run of the race on the fence!!!! God spare me !!! Mate her first Arc win was the greatest win in history, by far the best win I have ever seen. But then again she is French and Frankel English…
