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The whole lot of you seem to be missing the point. I did say Fallon was a good jockey, but I cant understand the euphoria that came with every Fallon ride [ ok it was the same with Piggott, Eddery] everytime they rode a winner it was vintage. Where as other jockeys ride winners but they were never put into the vintage bracket.<br>Fallon is as I have said far from the complete jockey, why then does numerous horses under his control run all over the place.<br>Which you lot patently ignore, as long as the brute force finish does the job.
Fallon obviously wasn’t helped by riding for the Ramsdens, by been a gambling stable, meant he probably stopped more horses than he actually tried on. <br>But surely Nor1 there is no excuses, these are grown men who know right from wrong, I can understand a journey man jockey struggling to make ends meet been gullible to the lure of easy cash, but Fallon who is a multi millionaire had no need, people say he is an intelligent jockey, to me he must be incredibly stupid, how else can you explain it, he must have a brain of a rocking horse.
mm, Kieren Fallon was a struggling jockey. That’s the point. He wasn’t a millionaire in those days. <br>Once snared (if that did happen to KF) jockeys can’t get the corrupters off their backs.<br>Getting back to the original thread:<br>My 2 favourites at present are Kerrin McEvoy and <br>Frankie Dettori, but there are other jockeys whose skills and dedication are a credit to them. <br>
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Madman
Just looking through tomorrow’s runners when I came across this little gem:
"If Ireland were in the World Cup and in a penalty shootout, the man I would pick to take the fifth penalty would be Kieren (Fallon). – John Magnier, owner."
But then, what would he know?:biggrin: :biggrin:
Granted that everyone, however humble, is entitled to an opinion, but it is embarrassing to read some of the derogatory comments on this thread about a certain very talented jockey, a respected owner and one or two trainers.
Some of the things that have been said would(if said loudly in a public place) render the accusers liable to a lawsuit for slander.
A few posts have made the very valid point that trainers are usually a much better judge of a jockey’s ability than people who do not train horses. Owners tend to trust the trainer’s judgement when it comes to putting a jockey up, although there have been instances of them being overruled.
I tend to trust the judgement of trainers in this respect and therefore any jockey retained by a top trainer is,in my book, de facto a very good jockey. I can’t think of any exceptions to this rule that I would be prepared to admit.
Yeh Artemis I better be careful what I say about those Ramsdens, as Thommo found out to his cost, regardless of what he said was true. But prove it in a court of law, he hadn’t got a tape recording of what Fallon said, so it was his word against theirs.<br>But I did witness the said Jockey in action, but I haven’t got a recording, hardly worth bringing me up for slander with my slender means.
Quote:
Kinane was a journeyman jockey until – probably would otherwise still be – his high-profile win on Carroll House in the Arc (which I backed). He was never off the telly or out of the racing papers after that and picked up more G1 rides and wins as a result but he’s another whose tactical nous is questionable at best.
<br>(Edited by Maurice at 12:43 pm on May 25, 2007)<br>
Maurice,
The season before Kinane won on Carroll house in the Arc, he was the chamion Irish jockey. To suggest that he was a journeyman is utter twaddle.
JohnJ.
Quote: from reet hard on 5:28 pm on May 26, 2007[br]Madman
Just looking through tomorrow’s runners when I came across this little gem:
"If Ireland were in the World Cup and in a penalty shootout, the man I would pick to take the fifth penalty would be Kieren (Fallon). – John Magnier, owner."
But then, what would he know?:biggrin: :biggrin: <br>
What does Fallon’s goalscoring ability have to do with his riding skills?
You wouldn’t want Wayne Rooney riding in the Derby would you?
You wouldn’t want Wayne Rooney riding in the Derby would you?
maybe not but it would be quite amusing!
i think fallon is great, he is blatantly a good jockey (or he simply wouldnt win/get good horses), im not going to go as far as saying he’s a ledgend or anything but if he does race again in this country, do you think he will be more or less popular now? a bit of a scandal can do wonders for some people and destroy others (speaking of destroying, what happened to the jockey who headbutted a horse on the BBC?)
"Maurice,
The season before Kinane won on Carroll house in the Arc, he was the chamion Irish jockey. To suggest that he was a journeyman is utter twaddle."
He was a journeyman jockey outside Ireland. I could have been champion jockey in Ireland in those days.
Whats the basis for the comment in those days? Also I really do not understand your rationale, he would have been a journeyman had it not been for the ride on Carroll house. Most jockeys would remain journeymen had they not got a break through ride. The fact that Kinane has held the the job with Dermot Weld, John Oxx and Aidan O’Brien, not to mention being offered the job at Godolphin would suggest that you may be way of the mark in your opinion.
JohnJ.
Kinane is a superb Jockey.. This year he’s continued to show the younger men how to do it..
DJ, you know what he’s getting at… It’s all about nerve.. Fallon obviously doesn;t have a lot of those, much like other great champions – Steven Hendry, Tiger Woods, Federer etc etc At their best when the pressure is on..
Being picked by a big name doesn’t convince me of anything. It usually just makes me wonder about the astuteness of those doing the picking…
Sucessive managers picking David James?<br>Chelsea – Michael Ballack? Shevchenko?<br>Man U – Liam Miller?<br>Stoute – Fallon?<br>Charles – Diana<br>Diana – Charles
The list is endless.
I don’t rate Kinane because of all the times I’ve seen him get into ridiculous positions in races and ultimately losing them when he should either have won or gone very close. The same goes for Fallon though I was much more suspicious of those situations. Kinane’s looked like incompetence; Fallon’s looked like something else to me.
I’ve seen them all get it seriously wrong. I tend to judge jockeys in terms of those who make fewest mistakes.
Cauthen stands apart in this respect but Dettori tends to make fewer mistakes than a lot of jockeys, in my opinion.<br>
Well I don’t agree with your opinion either does Stoute, Oxx, O’Brien or Weld. Kinane has won way in excess of 100 Group 1’s, to compare his career with Liam Miller’s stint at Man U is ridiculous. Look at his group 1 winners up to 2005, hardly can be called "journeyman"…
GROUP 1 WINNERS
1982 <br>Irish 2,000 Guineas : Dara Monarch
1983 <br>Phoenix Stakes : King Persian
1985 <br>Prix de l’Abbaye de Longchamp : Committed <br>Premio Parioli : Again Tomorrow
1986 <br>Irish 2,000 Guineas : Flash of Steel
1987 <br>Moyglare Stud Stakes : Flutter Away
1988 <br>Irish 1,000 Guineas : Trusted Partner <br>Premio Parioli : Gay Burslem <br>Premio Roma: Welsh Guide
1989 <br>Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe : Carroll House <br>Irish Oaks : Alydaress <br>Irish Champion Stakes : Carroll House
1990 <br>Belmont Stakes : Go and Go <br>King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes : Belmez <br>2000 Guineas : Tirol
1992 <br>St James’s Palace : Brief Truce <br>Italian Derby : In a Tiff <br>Arak Pokal : Tel Quel
1993 <br>English Derby : Commander In Chief <br>Melbourne Cup : Vintage Crop <br>Eclipse Stakes : Opera House <br>Irish St Leger : Vintage Crop <br>Arak Pokal : Monsun <br>Grosser Dallmayr Preis: Market Booster
1994 <br>Irish Champion Stakes : Cezanne <br>Irish St Leger : Vintage Crop <br>National Stakes : Definite Article <br>King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes : King’s Theatre <br>St James’s Palace : Grand Lodge <br>Coronation Stake : Kissin Cousin
1995 <br>Cheveley Park Stakes : Blue Duster <br>Italian Derby : Luso
1996 <br>Irish Oaks : Dance Design <br>Gold Cup : Classic Cliche <br>Fillies’Mile : Reams of Verse <br>Arak Pokal : Luso
1997 <br>Irish Champion Stakes : Pilsudski <br>2,000 Guineas : Entrepreneur <br>Racing Post Trophy : Saratoga Springs <br>Grand Critérium : Second Empire <br>Japan Cup : Pilsudski <br>Eclipse Stakes: Pilsudski <br>Champion Stakes: Pilsudski
1998 <br>National Stakes : Mus-If <br>2,000 Guineas : King of Kings <br>The Oaks : Shahtoush <br>Sussex Stakes : Among Men <br>Fillies’Mile : Sunspangled <br>Prix Morny : Orpen
1999 <br>Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe-Lucien Barrière : Montjeu <br>Phoenix Stakes : Fasliyev <br>July Cup : Stravinsky <br>Nunthorpe Stakes : Stravinsky <br>Prix Morny : Fasliyev <br>Prix de la Salamandre: Giant’s Causeway <br>Grand Criterium: Ciro
2000 <br>King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes : Montjeu <br>Tattersalls Gold Cup : Montjeu <br>St James’s Palace Stales : Giant’s Causeway <br>Sussex Stakes : Giant’s Causeway <br>Juddmonte International Stakes : Giant’s Causeway <br>Irish Champion Stakes : Giant’s Causeway <br>Phoenix Stakes : Minardi <br>Gold Cup : Kayf Tara <br>Prix Lupin : Ciro <br>Prix Vermeille : Volvoreta <br>Secretariat Stakes : Ciro <br>Middle Park Stakes : Minardi
2001 <br>Dubaï Poule d’Essai des Pouliches :Rose Gipsy <br>Prix Morny : Johannesburg <br>English Derby : Galileo <br>Irish Derby : Galileo <br>King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes : Galileo <br>The Oaks: Imagine <br>July Cup : Mozart <br>Nunthorpe Stakes : Mozart <br>St Leger : Milan <br>Phoenix Stakes : Johannesburg <br>Middle Park Stakes: Johannesburg <br>Breeders’Cup Juvenile: Johannesburg <br>Moyglare Stud Stakes : Quarter Moon <br>Aga Khan National Stud Stakes : Hawk Wing <br>Grand Critérium: Rock of Gibraltar <br>Dewhurst Stakes: Rock of Gibraltar <br>Grand Criterium de Milan: Sholokhov
2002 <br>Irish 2,000 Guineas : Rock of Gibraltar <br>St James’s Palace Stakes : Rock of Gibraltar <br>Sussex Stakes : Rock of Gibraltar <br>Prix du Moulin de Longchamp : Rock of Gibraltar <br>Coronation Stakes : Sophisticat <br>Irish Derby : High Chaparral <br>Eclipse Stakes : Hawk Wing <br>Poule d’Essai des Poulains : Landseer <br>Canadian International: Ballingarry <br>Gran Criterium: Spartacus <br>Gran Premio del Jockey Club e Coppa d’Oro: Black Sam Bellamy <br>Breeders’ Cup Turf: High Chaparral <br>Criterium de Saint Cloud: Alberto Giacometti <br>Hong Kong Cup: Precision
2003 <br>Lockinge Stakes: Hawk Wing <br>Tattersalls Gold Cup: Black Sam Bellamy <br>Irish 1,000 Guineas: Yesterday <br>Phoenix Stakes: One Cool Cat <br>Moyglare Stud Stakes: Necklace <br>Irish Champion Stakes: High Chaparral <br>National Stakes: One Cool Cat <br>Breeders’ Cup Turf: High Chaparral
2004 <br>St James Palace, Azamour <br>Irish Champion Stakes, Azamour <br>Prix de la Foret: Somnus
2005 <br>Prince of Wales Stakes: Azamour <br>King George & QE II Stakes|: Azamour <br>Sussex Stakes: Proclamation <br>Juddmonte International Stakes : Electrocutionist <br>Golden Jubilee: Cape of Good Hope <br>Irish 1,000 Guineas : Saoire <br>Cheveley Park: Donna Blini
So in the six years from 1982 to 1988 he rode only five G1 winners in the country in which he rode most often, and three in Italy (where they’re mostly G1s in name only) and one in France.
I said he was a journeyman until Carroll House. Thanks for proving me right.
Maurice
So what you’re saying is that 5 top stables (O’Brien, Oxx, Weld, & Goldolphin, Stoute) were all wrong to want Kinane as their stable jockey.
Is that correct?
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