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Fair enough GT,though Black Caviar also has a few who think she is the greatest horse who ever lived,afterall she did win 15 Group 1’s and remained undefeated.
Yes Jollyp, Black Caviar did win a lot of races, if consistency meant everything you might have a point, though I’d still say the number of 140’s put up by Frankel (more than any other in history) trumps your mare.
However, it is generally accepted that even by adding a sex allowance and even at her best – BC
never
put up any performance as good (in form terms) as Frankel
at his best
…
So brilliant though she undoubtedly was… Unless you are saying the "
Greatest Horse
" can be an
inferior
racehorse – BC can not be considered
"The Greatest Horse"
.
I accept people will have different definitions of "Greatest", but for me the words "Greatest" and "inferior" can not go together when assessing the merit of a horse.
Value Is EverythingI personally don’t think Frankel had a lot to prove,though others do.
Well he still did prove something to someone that day – Black Caviar’s own trainer finally realizing Frankel was the world’s best horse.
You have stated that about 15 times,have you got anything else instead of sounding like a broken record?
No, I haven’t stated it 15 times. That’s my bloody signature you idiot, so of course it’s gonna appear in all of my posts. Admittedly, must be hard for you to take, which I got to admit makes it even more fun. So it’s not going away anytime soon!
Oh dont get me started!!!!!! All this sycophantic blabber about greatest training performance ever.
That might be true if you consider the job to be getting the horse to the end of his career without exposing him to any real risk of him getting beaten.I have much more respect as a sporting fan for what Animal Kingdom is trying to do at Ascot, for what Vinnie Roe did in Australia, for what St Nicholas Abbey continues to do then I do for the way Frankel was campaigned which was to make sure all the odds were stacked in his favour before the die is cast. And people wonder why the sport is in decline? Frankel may have been the best horse, but Black Caviar was the true heroine.
Ok – some strong views here Sir Harry and I doubt from your tone that they are for changing. I should ignore really but…..
Not sure how it is sycophantic to praise the way he was trained. Most judges would say he did it reasonably well.
Also could you explain how they were somehow able to "make sure all the odds were stacked in his favour" – are you suggesting some sort of race fixing?
Also it is surely only hindsight that tells us he had little chance of being beaten so not sure about your "exposed" comment either. They ran him in the champion 2 year old race. They ran him in the first classic. They ran him against his elders and took on the 5 time Group 1 winner Canford Cliffs. They kept him in training at 4. They stepped him up to 10 1/2 furlongs. Then they ran him against a mud lover on heavy ground. Can you honestly say that running 14 times in a career, 10 of them in Group 1 races is tantamount to not exposing him?
Or are you speaking just a
tiny
bit of nonsense?
I was trolling a bit with the use of the word syncophant. I do feel my point has been lost somewhat.
Now Henry Cecil is a great trainer had two things to contend with here. He has a duty to Frankel’s owner to ensure that stud value doesn’t get compromised and secondly, he has the enormous pressure of an unbeaten horse and the incredible public/media scrutiny.
Let envisage the scenario, Frankel goes for the Arc and does what a lot of people including me think he would do and obliterates the field. We walk away, like most racing fans, thrilled by the spectacle, we seem to float home, for a brief moment in time, our mortgages don’t seem so bad, our boss is less of an idiot than usual, and even some guy who normally has more interest in junior league football actually wants to know what’s going on with this great horse. Isn’t that what sport is about? Could you imagine if he then did the preposterous, declares the horse to be in fine fettle and then sends him to America for the Breeders cup. We could dream couldn’t we?
So in the second scenario, Sir Henry sends him to the arc, and his stamina doesn’t quite hold out in near unraceable ground. He gets beaten a short head by a 20/1 shot. Henry Cecil would probably be thinking to himself “This is my fault”, the fans of the horse would be thinking “this is Henry Cecil’s fault and the horse should be unbeaten” and the owner is thinking…………well I don’t know what he would think, but he wouldn’t be pleased and perhaps might be worried that he has scrubbed off a percentage of the cover fee in the pursuit of glory.
In our world, Scenario 2 is so terrible that there’s no point in taking a risk and I don’t think that it’s a good thing.
I want my sporting greats to be all that they can be, to strive for the impossible, to go the edge, to convert the doubter, to push their luck and above all these things try.
Nowhere has the ideals of sport been more completely subverted than in flat racing at this level. In fact, it’s been so successful that most of us racing fans have forgotten the true value of competition and accepted that financial needs and concerns are a more noble pursuit in many instances.
Henry Cecil did what any other responsible trainer would have done in the same circumstances. The problem lies in what he is responsible to.
SHL
SHL
Fair enough GT,though Black Caviar also has a few who think she is the greatest horse who ever lived,afterall she did win 15 Group 1’s and remained undefeated.
Yes Jollyp, Black Caviar did win a lot of races, if consistency meant everything you might have a point, though I’d still say the number of 140’s put up by Frankel (more than any other in history) trumps your mare.
However, it is generally accepted that even by adding a sex allowance and even at her best – BC
never
put up any performance as good (in form terms) as Frankel
at his best
…
So brilliant though she undoubtedly was… Unless you are saying the "
Greatest Horse
" can be an
inferior
racehorse – BC can not be considered
"The Greatest Horse"
.
I accept people will have different definitions of "Greatest", but for me the words "Greatest" and "inferior" can not go together when assessing the merit of a horse.
Obviously one would have to start by agreeing with the ratings though.
SHL
Poor??
Maybe some of you should have another look.
I detest preambles Hammy, and we have all seen this race anyway. What is your point please?
Simply that I don’t see how anyone could evaluate his CS performance as being poor PC.
Just for once he dwelt in the stalls and had six or seven lengths to make up in the most testing of ground before even being competitive in the race. Then, when push comes to shove, he cruises past a top class horse who himself has his perfect conditions, conditions that clearly weren’t the optimum ones for Frankel.
Not just a good challenger but the best horse an entire continent could provide to challenge the champion. And Frankel goes past him with nonchalance, his jockey using only hands and heels while the confirmed mud lark is getting hit with the whip. Queally then makes sure of the job by scrubbing his horse up to keep him up to his work and is clearly going away from the French horse at the line.
Poor performance? Any other horse would have attracted the ‘won a touch cosily’ cliche for such a brilliant win but because we’d previously seen this horse win Group 1 races by margins that have rarely been seen on single occasions from other previous great horses, let alone time and time again, the perception from some people was that he gave a poor performance. That’s complete and utter nonsense IMHO.
That is my point.
You have stated that about 15 times,have you got anything else instead of sounding like a broken record?
No, I haven’t stated it 15 times. That’s my bloody signature you idiot, so of course it’s gonna appear in all of my posts. Admittedly, must be hard for you to take, which I got to admit makes it even more fun. So it’s not going away anytime soon!
Blackbeard to conquer the World
You have stated that about 15 times,have you got anything else instead of sounding like a broken record?
No, I haven’t stated it 15 times. That’s my bloody signature you idiot, so of course it’s gonna appear in all of my posts. Admittedly, must be hard for you to take, which I got to admit makes it even more fun. So it’s not going away anytime soon!
Blackbeard to conquer the World
You have stated that about 15 times,have you got anything else instead of sounding like a broken record?
No, I haven’t stated it 15 times. That’s my bloody signature you idiot, so of course it’s gonna appear in all of my posts. Admittedly, must be hard for you to take, which I got to admit makes it even more fun. So it’s not going away anytime soon!
Gave me a chuckle too Nathan.
Just for once he dwelt in the stalls and had six or seven lengths to make up in the most testing of ground before even being competitive in the race. Then, when push comes to shove, he cruises past a top class horse who himself has his perfect conditions, conditions that clearly weren’t the optimum ones for Frankel.
To overcome those adversities with such great fortitude is, to me, a crystal clear indicator why Frankel would’ve stayed 12 furlongs on good ground.
I personally don’t think Frankel had a lot to prove,though others do.
Well he still did prove something to someone that day – Black Caviar’s own trainer finally realizing Frankel was the world’s best horse.
I know that is your signature you mouth! I was talking about your comment that Black Caviar’s own trainer finally realised it!
Fair enough GT,though Black Caviar also has a few who think she is the greatest horse who ever lived,afterall she did win 15 Group 1’s and remained undefeated.
Yes Jollyp, Black Caviar did win a lot of races, if consistency meant everything you might have a point, though I’d still say the number of 140’s put up by Frankel (more than any other in history) trumps your mare.
However, it is generally accepted that even by adding a sex allowance and even at her best – BC
never
put up any performance as good (in form terms) as Frankel
at his best
…
So brilliant though she undoubtedly was… Unless you are saying the "
Greatest Horse
" can be an
inferior
racehorse – BC can not be considered
"The Greatest Horse"
.
I accept people will have different definitions of "Greatest", but for me the words "Greatest" and "inferior" can not go together when assessing the merit of a horse.
This has been debated many times GT and not woth going into again,as TF ratings have always been biased towards European horses.
Fair enough GT,though Black Caviar also has a few who think she is the greatest horse who ever lived,afterall she did win 15 Group 1’s and remained undefeated.
Yes Jollyp, Black Caviar did win a lot of races, if consistency meant everything you might have a point, though I’d still say the number of 140’s put up by Frankel (more than any other in history) trumps your mare.
However, it is generally accepted that even by adding a sex allowance and even at her best – BC
never
put up any performance as good (in form terms) as Frankel
at his best
…
So brilliant though she undoubtedly was… Unless you are saying the "
Greatest Horse
" can be an
inferior
racehorse – BC can not be considered
"The Greatest Horse"
.
I accept people will have different definitions of "Greatest", but for me the words "Greatest" and "inferior" can not go together when assessing the merit of a horse.
This has been debated many times GT and not woth going into again,as TF ratings have always been biased towards European horses.
I imagine there is a strong bias towards middle distance horses anyway.
SHL
,
as TF ratings have always been biased towards European horses
.
Is that why (taking in to account her sex allowance) no sprinter has had a better rating than Black Caviar’s 136 since the 1940’s?
I can not think of a filly/mare that has beaten 136.
7 of the "current" World top Timeform ratings are non-European?
Top 10 are 2 Australian, 2 American, 2 Hong Kongers, 1 French, 1 Irish, 1 Japanese and 1 British.
13 of the "current" top 21 Timeform ratings are non-European? 15 of those 21 putting up their top rating outside Europe.
Does that sound like a "European bias" to you?
Value Is EverythingGT, Obviously BC would have to be rated above any other mare on her record,what i am saying is that the bias is to bump European horses up.Of the top 10 it just probably states that like most countries you are having a period where the horses around at the moment are down a little on the past.
The World Thoroughbred Racehorses Rankings (WTRR) rated Frankel at 140 and Black Caviar at 130 Are you going to slander the IFHA and say theyre biased? Based in France so I guess you’ll say so
The World Thoroughbred Racehorses Rankings (WTRR) rated Frankel at 140 and Black Caviar at 130 Are you going to slander the IFHA and say theyre biased? Based in France so I guess you’ll say so
You are coming in a bit late on this mate this has been discussed many times.Slander? Well you will have to ask the experts on here who previously have been pretty good at it.Choisir 25-1 in the Kings Stand after winning the Lightning G1 at Flemington, the worlds best sprint race,wonder what he rated back then
GT, Obviously BC would have to be rated above any other mare on her record,
You do not seem to realise how horses are "rated" Jollyp. A rating does not go up with the number of races won. It is the same in Australia as Britain or anywhere. Any horse needs to improve the QUALITY of performance to improve a rating. eg If Horse A were to beat horse B and C five times and by exactly the same distances each time – horse A does NOT IMPROVE its rating. It CAN NOT be rated higher because otherwise HANDICAPPING does not work. Ratings tell the reader how much better one horse is from the next, ie how far horse A should beat horse B if they both run to form. Of course consistency is a wonderful attribute we all like to see, but it can not change "rating".
Black Caviar’s best Timeform ratings came on 18th Feb 2012 in the Lightning and 12th March 2011 in the Lexus. So despite winning six races after the Lightning it made no difference to her rating.
Value Is Everything
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