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HOWEVER – Pour Moi ran to an RPR of 121 that day. Frankel, in HIS next race (The SJP) ran to 122. Just 1lb higher YET over his ideal trip – FOUR furlongs shorter.
Do you
honestly
believe that Frankel would not have won the SJP doing handsrpings if Queally had ridden a hold up race? The horse was asked to expend all of his energy from the moment Queally lost the plot – as Carson said at the time Lester would have produced him with a furlong to go.
The only reason Frankel recorded such a poor rating in the SJP was due to the proximity of Zoffany, a horse who quite patently benefited from Queally’s inept ride.
Why is it childish?
You very obviously stated that "Frankel never did anything that suggested anything other than a mile was his best trip."
That statement is completely untrue because Frankel equalled his highest ever RPR (143 in the 2012 Queen Anne Stakes) when winning the International Stakes.
In the Champion Stakes he recorded his worst rating since the almost catastrophic St James’s Palace Stakes due to a combination of soft going and his jockey falling asleep in the stalls thereby putting his mount on the back foot from the get go, giving a head start to the French horse (remember Ian Mongan looking around wondering where the **** Queally was?).
I see the comment:-
"Presumably because it doesn’t fit in with your theory?"
as both a lazy and rather juvenile accusation.
You are making a series of excuses for Frankel’s poor showing the second time he ran over the 10F trip. So much for Frankel being the freak horse with so much ability that excuses would not be needed.
I think any scientific mind will tell you that you cannot base a theory on
one
piece of evidence. Frankel has been there and done it
numerous
times over 1 mile, including on softish ground. The record books will always show that when faced with soft over the extended distance, he was nowhere near his best form.
Your logic is not consistent, because you are trying to use the soft ground to explain Frankel’s poorer second 10f run but not acknowledging that his first run over the trip was on ground as fast as he had ever encountered. You were quick enough to accuse me of cherry picking but you are trying to say my statement is completely untrue, based on one result that you did not factor the different going into.
You can choose to believe whatever you wish regarding Frankel’s best trip but at least be more consistent and thorough before rubbishing other people’s opinions.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
I’d say SHL is talking more than a tiny bit of nonsense Joni, in fact everything he says in that post is complete and utter…
Still being a condescending know all i see GT,true to form as always when under pressure you belittle and attach your little smiley face icon.This isn’t YOUR forum,SHL did have some valid points,one doesn’t have to agree with an opinion,though if it is not outlandish it is childish for you to say they are talking complete and utter…. We are smart enough to fill in the gap.You just love your grandstanding.
HOWEVER – Pour Moi ran to an RPR of 121 that day. Frankel, in HIS next race (The SJP) ran to 122. Just 1lb higher YET over his ideal trip – FOUR furlongs shorter.
Do you
honestly
believe that Frankel would not have won the SJP doing handsrpings if Queally had ridden a hold up race? The horse was asked to expend all of his energy from the moment Queally lost the plot – as Carson said at the time Lester would have produced him with a furlong to go.
The only reason Frankel recorded such a poor rating in the SJP was due to the proximity of Zoffany, a horse who quite patently benefited from Queally’s inept ride.
No I honestly believe Frankel would have won by a few lengths if TQ had held him up Ivanjica. He settled pretty well and there was no need to go off after his pacemaker when he did. As a quick aside, it was an APPALLING piece of riding from Michael Hills on Rerouted. He took NO notice of where Frankel was and what the rest of the field were doing and rode his horse like he was in a 3 furlong sprint. TQ should not have been spooked but he was. I bet plenty of words were exchanged with Mr Hills though – I doubt he liked riding a pacemaker. Still they NEVER got their tactics right in that 3 year old season. Pacemakers either went too fast or too slow.
Anyway yes Frankel would have won more easily BUT I still don’t think he was quite the same horse that day. In my opinion he tied up badly in that last half furlong. I know some say he was idling but he never idled in any of his other races so I don’t see why he should have done it here. I was there and I remember having the strangest feeling. He had just WON the SJP and yet the atmosphere at the course felt like he had been beaten. I think everyone was so disappointed at how underwhelming he had been. I actually think Sir Hen was a bit embarrassed.
Listen it is just my opinion but it would hardly be surprising if his Guineas effort had taken a little out of him. I think a fresher Frankel would have quickened after his pacemaker but not idled and won by 6 or 7.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I’d say SHL is talking more than a tiny bit of nonsense Joni, in fact everything he says in that post is complete and utter…
Still being a condescending know all i see GT,true to form as always when under pressure you belittle and attach your little smiley face icon.This isn’t YOUR forum,SHL did have some valid points,one doesn’t have to agree with an opinion,though if it is not outlandish it is childish for you to say they are talking complete and utter…. We are smart enough to fill in the gap.You just love your grandstanding.
I didn’t see many valid points Jolly but I did see plenty of outlandish comments as I pointed out earlier. Though, as anyone who reads YOUR comments knows very well by now, you do not know the difference.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I’d say SHL is talking more than a tiny bit of nonsense Joni, in fact everything he says in that post is complete and utter…
Still being a condescending know all i see GT,true to form as always when under pressure you belittle and attach your little smiley face icon.This isn’t YOUR forum,SHL did have some valid points,one doesn’t have to agree with an opinion,though if it is not outlandish it is childish for you to say they are talking complete and utter…. We are smart enough to fill in the gap.You just love your grandstanding.
I didn’t see many valid points Jolly but I did see plenty of outlandish comments as I pointed out earlier. Though, as anyone who reads YOUR comments knows very well by now, you do not know the difference.
1:When horses such as Frankel and Black Caviar are so superior to the horses they are meeting it is foolish to state that it maybe the greatest training effort.2:Vinnie Roe travelled a vast distance to win the cup,SNA has travelled and won top races,Animal Kingdom is taking the risk by going there.4:Whether you like it or not Black Caviar was the star of the show,even with a narrow win,Frankel certainly was the most dominant win,but BC brought the crowd through the gates! I personally don’t think Frankel had a lot to prove,though others do.You get your ‘knowledge’from the form guide and TV,some get theirs hands on! So one eye when SHL talks of admiring VR,AK,SNA and saying BC was the main attraction where is his ‘plenty’ outlandish statements!!! When one is outpointed with horse knowledge they usually make stupid comments to try and bluff the readers into thinking the other person doesn’t know what they are talking about. You could always start by learning how to put a saddle and bridle on a horse!
"Jollyp":2czx5ytr wrote:
1:When horses such as Frankel and Black Caviar are so superior to the horses they are meeting it is foolish to state that it maybe the greatest training effort.2:Vinnie Roe travelled a vast distance to win the cup,SNA has travelled and won top races,Animal Kingdom is taking the risk by going there.4:Whether you like it or not Black Caviar was the star of the show,even with a narrow win,Frankel certainly was the most dominant win,but BC brought the crowd through the gates! I personally don’t think Frankel had a lot to prove,though others do.You get your ‘knowledge’from the form guide and TV,some get theirs hands on! So one eye when SHL talks of admiring VR,AK,SNA and saying BC was the main attraction where is his ‘plenty’ outlandish statements!!! When one is outpointed with horse knowledge they usually make stupid comments to try and bluff the readers into thinking the other person doesn’t know what they are talking about. You could always start by learning how to put a saddle and bridle on a horse!He he he!!!! Dear old Jolly! I thought that might provoke a response! I’ll try and be nice now as it is Sunday.
I am in awe of your ability to put a saddle and bridle on a horse me old mucker. Next time I come to Oz perhaps we can meet up and you can show me. I used to ride a lot when I was a kid and so can probably remember some of it but it would be nice to have a refresher especially as I imagine you do it a bit differently down under.
I suppose with all that background you must be right. It must be easy to train a really good horse. I am sure there is nothing to it.
I also think it is nice when horses travel great distances to win easier races. A lot of our middle distance horses that fail over here get great success over in your country where the standard is poor but the money is good. I am sure the owners are very grateful to you guys! I also agree it is very sporting of the owners of SNA to send him abroad and am sure they would have done so even if he HAD won all the races they expected him to win at 3.
And yes it was wonderful when BC came over to Royal Ascot. I was in Earls Court that day and there was not a single Aussie on the street where they all live. It was great that they all flocked to RA – you went yourself didn’t you? Thanks heavens she scraped home otherwise the Four X would really have hit the fan!
And yes Frankel’s 11 length win didn’t really prove anything we didn’t already know about the beast although Peter Moody’s comments about him were interesting weren’t they! "Never seen anything like it" – as I recall.
It is perfectly noble that SLH admires horse that travel. I am not sure it is quite so noble when he accuses members of this forum of being sycophants.
Anyway, good swapping views with you as usual. Hopefully plenty more to come in this Ashes Summer!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I find it very interesting that when Frankel does good it is all about about what a wonderful fellow Sir Henry is picking the right race and all that and when he does poorly it is all about what a poor ride he got from a jockey falling asleep in the gate ,to giving him his head.As I said very interesting.He must have been an armchair ride.
Poor??
Maybe some of you should have another look.
I detest preambles Hammy, and we have all seen this race anyway. What is your point please?
"Jonibake":1yamdhz3 wrote:
1:When horses such as Frankel and Black Caviar are so superior to the horses they are meeting it is foolish to state that it maybe the greatest training effort.2:Vinnie Roe travelled a vast distance to win the cup,SNA has travelled and won top races,Animal Kingdom is taking the risk by going there.4:Whether you like it or not Black Caviar was the star of the show,even with a narrow win,Frankel certainly was the most dominant win,but BC brought the crowd through the gates! I personally don’t think Frankel had a lot to prove,though others do.You get your ‘knowledge’from the form guide and TV,some get theirs hands on! So one eye when SHL talks of admiring VR,AK,SNA and saying BC was the main attraction where is his ‘plenty’ outlandish statements!!! When one is outpointed with horse knowledge they usually make stupid comments to try and bluff the readers into thinking the other person doesn’t know what they are talking about. You could always start by learning how to put a saddle and bridle on a horse!
He he he!!!! Dear old Jolly! I thought that might provoke a response! I’ll try and be nice now as it is Sunday.
I am in awe of your ability to put a saddle and bridle on a horse me old mucker. Next time I come to Oz perhaps we can meet up and you can show me. I used to ride a lot when I was a kid and so can probably remember some of it but it would be nice to have a refresher especially as I imagine you do it a bit differently down under.
I suppose with all that background you must be right. It must be easy to train a really good horse. I am sure there is nothing to it.
I also think it is nice when horses travel great distances to win easier races. A lot of our middle distance horses that fail over here get great success over in your country where the standard is poor but the money is good. I am sure the owners are very grateful to you guys! I also agree it is very sporting of the owners of SNA to send him abroad and am sure they would have done so even if he HAD won all the races they expected him to win at 3.
And yes it was wonderful when BC came over to Royal Ascot. I was in Earls Court that day and there was not a single Aussie on the street where they all live. It was great that they all flocked to RA – you went yourself didn’t you? Thanks heavens she scraped home otherwise the Four X would really have hit the fan!
And yes Frankel’s 11 length win didn’t really prove anything we didn’t already know about the beast although Peter Moody’s comments about him were interesting weren’t they! "Never seen anything like it" – as I recall.
It is perfectly noble that SLH admires horse that travel. I am not sure it is quite so noble when he accuses members of this forum of being sycophants.
Anyway, good swapping views with you as usual. Hopefully plenty more to come in this Ashes Summer!
Joni riding a wooden horse on a carousel doesn’t count!If the Melbourne Cup is so easy to win why havn’t your much ‘superior’ stayers ever won it after umpteen cracks at it? You may remember you have sent a couple of your better stayers here to finish well down the track. Yes Moody did say that,though in the aftermath with BC winning 25 undefeated carrying an injury at times i am not so sure that Moody would rate him above the mare.Considering that the mare tore chest muscles and still won a couple of times previous to RA and she had the arduous trip over when obviously down on her best.I think a forgotten thing about BC is that she must be close to being one of the toughest horses to race to be able to go through the pain barrier yet still remain undefeated.The Ashes,well i think you may get us there,we havn’t a great team,though beware i remember the last time we sent our ‘worst’ team ever over there they managed to win the Ashes.Yes i was at RA last year,unfortunately Mrs Jollyp has reigned in the purse strings for this year, though through sheer bribery have talked her into going to RA next year.Mrs J is a sucker for nice shoes,handbags,dresses and shiny sparkling things!
I’d say SHL is talking more than a tiny bit of nonsense Joni, in fact everything he says in that post is complete and utter…
Still being a condescending know all i see GT,true to form as always when under pressure you belittle and attach your little smiley face icon.This isn’t YOUR forum,SHL did have some valid points,one doesn’t have to agree with an opinion,though if it is not outlandish it is childish for you to say they are talking complete and utter…. We are smart enough to fill in the gap.You just love your grandstanding.
Glad you are smart enough to fill in the gap Jollyp, that was the whole point of saying it.
Am sure SHL writes some good stuff, but am also sure he knew by saying those things about the Greatest Horse who ever lived – would bring some harsh words from a Frankelphile. Although SHL has every right to say what he did, I also have the right to say what I think of it. May be should’ve enlarged on my thoughts, but we’ve had this Frankel discussion several times before and everyone probably knows my opinion by now.
Value Is EverythingI’d say SHL is talking more than a tiny bit of nonsense Joni, in fact everything he says in that post is complete and utter…
Still being a condescending know all i see GT,true to form as always when under pressure you belittle and attach your little smiley face icon.This isn’t YOUR forum,SHL did have some valid points,one doesn’t have to agree with an opinion,though if it is not outlandish it is childish for you to say they are talking complete and utter…. We are smart enough to fill in the gap.You just love your grandstanding.
Glad you are smart enough to fill in the gap Jollyp, that was the whole point of saying it.
Am sure SHL writes some good stuff, but am also sure he knew by saying those things about the Greatest Horse who ever lived – would bring some harsh words from a Frankelphile. Although SHL has every right to say what he did, I also have the right to say what I think of it. May be should’ve enlarged on my thoughts, but we’ve had this Frankel discussion several times before and everyone probably knows my opinion by now.
Fair enough GT,though Black Caviar also has a few who think she is the greatest horse who ever lived,afterall she did win 15 Group 1’s and remained undefeated.
I personally don’t think Frankel had a lot to prove,though others do.
Well he still did prove something to someone that day – Black Caviar’s own trainer finally realizing Frankel was the world’s best horse.
Straight from the horsesmouth…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKQ4xTCTDtE
intervewer: he’s the world best horse
Moody – "he sure is and we seen why today"
That was then, she finished with 25 wins 15 Group 1’s which is more starts then Frankel had… Its funny how d#ckheads like Matt Chapman said that Black Caviar had to travel to prove herself,well she did!I didn’t see Frankel outside his own country!Seeing as it is well known that Peter Moody stated it at the time and the point that he said it is not doubted,why do you both feel the need to point this out? Perhaps you both need to read properly before you go off half cocked.
I personally don’t think Frankel had a lot to prove,though others do.
Well he still did prove something to someone that day – Black Caviar’s own trainer finally realizing Frankel was the world’s best horse.
You have stated that about 15 times,have you got anything else instead of sounding like a broken record?
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