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Could there be proper Championships or “Premier League” in horse racing and would it add interest/promote racing?
Value Is EverythingAn interesting idea and fairly original. Is this not however, similar to the National Hunt Order Of Merit that ran for a few years before being discontinued in about 2011? I don’t remember much attention that it gained.
This is exactly what I was referring to in the other thread Mark. Any sport needs narrative for it to be relevant to all but the anoraks. I would simplify your idea by having just one Championship. So you would have say 8-10 qualifying races for each distance but the points go towards one overall winner. The same races could count for a separate jockeys, owners and trainers title. It would need big prize money to make it more worthwhile for connections and more interesting for the wider public.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Would it make a that much of a difference though.?
It’s not quite the County Championship turning into twenty twenty revolution
The non anoraks would get their brains even more pickled at Johnny G pulling the Championship leader Jack Hobbs out of the finale as the distance and going will be different to the Arc de European Super Cup over in Paris…..
Charles Darwin to conquer the World
I am not sure if your aim is to raise interest for people who would be new recruits to the sport, or just make life more interesting for those of us who have been around for ages.
My view is that added competitions don’t add to my enjoyment or interest. The QIPCO sponsored British Champions Series of the last few years is a bit of a non-event for me. I am interested in the races, and the horses that run in them, like I am for all big races, but I could not tell you who scored how many points in any category. But I would happily discuss with anybody (for hours), which horse was the best miler in 2015, the best stayer in 2014, the best at middle distances, etc. I want people to have a different opinion to mine. I really like the subjective aspects of judging racehorses; toughness, determination, tackles all going, acceleration, hold up or front runner, has the fortitude to race every fortnight. I do not know the exact rating given to Giant’s Causeway by RPR, OR, TF, but would I be excited to watch him race? Oh yes. Whether I was a newby or an oldster, would I be bothered how many points Big Orange or Order Of St George scored in the Gold Cup? Would I be bothered that Provideo was rated only 112 by TF, or should I be surprised that I still remember his achievements over thirty years later? I think people get sucked into horse racing because they get surprised by a special race (this year’s Gold Cup) or a special horse (Kauto Star); they then stay interested long enough to find a favourite trainer, owner or jockey, and eventually more favourite horses and accumulated memories of brilliant races, whether they are Group class or a 20 runner sprint handicap. I think the industry would do better to heavily promote exciting races and special horses.I am perfectly happy to keep all the numbers stuff related to punting; but for the horses, races, and racing people, to be interested in them as they are and not by how many points or ratings they might have scored.
This is exactly what I was referring to in the other thread Mark. Any sport needs narrative for it to be relevant to all but the anoraks. I would simplify your idea by having just one Championship. So you would have say 8-10 qualifying races for each distance but the points go towards one overall winner. The same races could count for a separate jockeys, owners and trainers title. It would need big prize money to make it more worthwhile for connections and more interesting for the wider public.
It was your post that gave me the idea, Joni.
I looked at how many Group races there are over middle distances, 40+.
So you’re right, it needs simplifying!May be keep it to all Group 1’s plus just a few Group 2’s in the stayers rces. I’ve not included the Falmouth, Sun Chariot and F+M Championship as these make it too easy for a filly to win (races not up to “Premiership” standard) and allow her to avoid the boys.
It may look as though the list below consists of more opportunities for milers and middle-distance horses, but in practice some are restricted to 4 year old+, some just 3 year olds, some fillies and some just 3 year old fillies. eg Three year old male milers can run in the 2000 Guineas and St James’s Palace; 3yo female milers the 1000 and Coronation, older horses Lockinge and Queen Anne… So I’ve counted these 6 races as 2.
There’s nothing stopping a horse running in two different divisions. However, although I believe very few will have more than 5 runs in “Championship races” and am not stopping a horse from taking part in any race… I think there should be a a rule that only (up to) the first 5 runs count for each horse in these races, ie In order to ensure as far as possible all age, sex and distance groups have roughly the same chance of winning the Championship. I’ve also included the Abbaye and Arc, as these help to equal out 5f with 6f races and 12 with 10f… and both attract British horses just as much as a British Group 1.
Group 2 rces included in the competition are worth slightly less.
If a horse runs in two Royal Ascot races, only the first race counts.STAYER RACES:
Gold Cup
Goodwood Cup
Lonsdale Cup
Doncaster Cup
St Leger
Champion Long Distance CupSPRINTER RACES:
King’s Stand
Commonwealth Cup
Diamond Jubilee
July Cup
Nunthorpe
Sprint Cup
Abbeye
Champion SprintMILER RACES:
2000 Guineas
1000 Guineas
Lockinge
Queen Anne
St James’s Palace
Coronation Stakes
Sussex
QEIIMIDDLE DISTANCE
Coronation Cup
Oaks
Derby
Prince Of Wales
Eclipse
King George VI
Nassau
International
Yorkshire Oaks
Arc De Triomphe
Champion StakesValue Is EverythingI am not sure if your aim is to raise interest for people who would be new recruits to the sport, or just make life more interesting for those of us who have been around for ages.
I think the industry would do better to heavily promote exciting races and special horses.
I am perfectly happy to keep all the numbers stuff related to punting; but for the horses, races, and racing people, to be interested in them as they are and not by how many points or ratings they might have scored.
Am not putting this forward to greatly interest us (already) horse racing enthusiasts, MV. It’s “new recruits” I’m primarily after.
Do think something like this would generate interest both in non-racing media and non-racing public.
Suspect I am not alone in being grabbed by racing when seeing and appreciating great horses. This hopefully would help draw interest towards who you describe as “special horses” in “special races” and enthuse future racing enthusiasts. Motor Racing has Formula 1, Footall has Premier League; “Group 1 races” mean little or nothing to the general public; we need something else so they realise the races/horses are “special”.It may also encourage/improve quality in staying races. A horse that needs at least 12f may decide to run in the Yorkshire Cup. We might even see a Derby winner running in the St Leger… Or quality milers once again targeting the July Cup; or Derby winner once again going for the Eclipse and King George.
Just because Chelsea won the Premier League doesn’t stop fans debating whether Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal, City or Utd are the best. Have no fear we’ll still be debating horses merits.
Value Is EverythingAbsolutely Mark – personally I wouldn’t change a thing because I don’t need a narrative. Just like you’ll have pure Cricket fans (like me) who will watch 5-day Tests regardless and didn’t need 20-20. But I understand that this doesn’t work for everyone. So this is not about us, this is about appealing to a wider audience. So many other sports have adapted to the changing world to make themselves more popular and this might be a way for racing to do it.
I think it might need an extra element though. The “what’s in this for me?” question. Some sort of chance to win big money, a fantasy league or something. I’m still livid they did away with the Ten To Follow competition!!
Anyway Mark – lets you and me put up the money next year and see what happens. How much do we have between us?
:)
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
This is creative but I don’t think it is good. Remember horse racing is a business primarily and any narratives/entertainment we enjoy are incidental and secondary.
If you put money on the line for something like this, you will give a dangerous incentive for trainers to overrace their horses or do something reckless in a last-ditch attempt to win. The National Hunt Order of Merit remains a cautionary tale for any new innovation. It makes the rich richer and adds nothing when there is a standout performer (e.g. Kauto Star’s breakthrough year where he won almost everything 2m – 3m). Less stellar years were downright dangerous with the absurd situation of Royal Shakespeare and Monkerhostin playing a game of chicken over the prospect of running in the Celebration Chase, despite RS never having jumped a fence in public and an over-the-top Monkerhostin having already run twice that month.
Remember horse racing is a business primarily
Really? I thought it was a sport.
Only 5 races to count?
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
To be honest, I wouldn’t be a fan of this idea used at the top level, as much as I respect it and am happy such thoughts are out there.
I would however, instead put this idea into action not in Group races but the big handicaps such as the Lincoln, Victoria Cup, Hunt Cup, Wokingham, John Smiths’ Cup, Northumberland Plate, Steward’s Cup, Ayr Gold Cup, Cambridgeshire, November Handicap (e.g all of the big seasons handicaps). I’d keep the points for placings idea but not have separate championships for different distances so as it would mean horses dropping and stepping up in distance which would make things more interesting. There would be no worry about horses going abroad instead and neither would there be about owners having stud value in mind. It would give these types of horses more coverage, it would be fiercely hard to win due to handicapping and I think would have the full support of trainers, owners and punters alike.
Would it make a that much of a difference though.?
It’s not quite the County Championship turning into twenty twenty revolution
The non anoraks would get their brains even more pickled at Johnny G pulling the Championship leader Jack Hobbs out of the finale as the distance and going will be different to the Arc de European Super Cup over in Paris….. Not definite to make “that much difference”, but I think it will and isn’t it worth trying, Nathan?
The Arc is included in the Championship.
I take it the Arc still happens before the Champion Stakes anyway? So the “non-anoraks” wouldn’t know about such a decision.
Non-runners will always happen, we can’t change that.
Value Is EverythingIt’s “new recruits” I’m primarily after
More favourite backers to open up value elsewhere eh Ginge…..
Charles Darwin to conquer the World
I think it might need an extra element though. The “what’s in this for me?” question. Some sort of chance to win big money, a fantasy league or something. I’m still livid they did away with the Ten To Follow competition!!
Anyway Mark – lets you and me put up the money next year and see what happens. How much do we have between us?
🙂
I’ll put in a fiver, Joni. Leave it to you for the rest. Get your Middle-Eastern friends involved.
As far as the general (non-racing) public go, doubt a “fantasy league” would do much to get them interested in racing – imo it’s more about them realising what they’re watching. However, for estalished punters think it would be a great idea. Jockeys competition, yes. Not sure on trainers and owner awards; trainer is a 1 horse race, owners just two.
Value Is EverythingThe non racing public need to get their heads out of the stigma that racing
is bent, fixed
a mugs game
pure luck
cruelbefore they even entertain the idea of a championship
Charles Darwin to conquer the World
A noble ambition, GT, but doomed, I’m sorry to say.
You either “get” racing or you don’t. What makes you get it nobody knows (though research might give some very strong clues)
“Give it a narrative’ is one of those marketing expressions that many nod wisely at even though nobody really understands what it means – a factor much depended on by the high-charging marketing agencies (who don’t know what it means either).
So you’re right, it needs simplifying!
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