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Bin Suroor for me, without doubt or hesitation. They are not a Mark Prescott stable, training a load of handicappers. Yet that is what it seems like they have done all year. Where are all their Group winners?
Quote: from Lingfield on 10:18 pm on Oct. 7, 2006[br]Drone makes some very good points and I’d support the vast majority of what he says.<br>His comments on JPMcManus’s equine acquisitions are interesting. I’d draw some analogy with the position of fellow top owner and big spender David Johnson. Over the years he’s had plenty of horses of variable quality and some big winners trained by Martin Pipe and ridden by top jocks including McCoy, but not many really progressed to championship class and thus some big races were never won. He seemed to switch purchasing strategy to slower maturing types and engaged the patient Murphy once McCoy left but I’m not sure that Pipe snr. was as adept at training these types as opposed to "off the peg" horses from the flat or ex French jumpers which were usually hard trained and given forceful front running rides. Other trainers also seem to have caught up and have their horses just as fit to run.<br>Will be interesting if Johnson invests with Pipe jnr. or maintains a watching brief.<br>He also owns and retains his fair share of slowboats and dodgepots, some of which have been transferred north to Montieth.<br> <br>
THe idea that McCoy is not ideal for mentally fragile horses makes sense when one observes his style but surely there is actually little evidence of this. For one thing, I believe that most horses are mentally fragile and more to the point, its the hard headed ones that can be just as troublesome. Any jockey or trainer who fails to understand or get inside an animals head would be doomed to failure. Ive never seen evidence of horses running better for the other top jocks in place of McCoy.
On another matter, Our family have sold some horses to Mcmanus…which did pretty well so Im not going to criticise his buying policy. :)
He seems to buy so many of them, often out of point to pointing that he should have encounterd a couple of top class Gold cup style chasers by now.
His high profile purchases of established racehorses has been very bizarre and its been looking increasingly more obvious to me over the recent years that as his fortunes have rocketed and his empire is expanding, that he is perhaps getting detached from the grass roots of his racing empire. Despite this, we know he still makes a lot of decisions and perhaps therein lies his problems.
SHL
Hey jeremy,
To say Artane Boys is quirky might be right but VILE I take the strongest objection to calling any horse that. I bred him and sold him as a yearling and physically he was a lovely horse and very easy to handle. He was an orphan foal and people say they very often show some character !
This is purely a guess but I understand Artane Boys come from a Dublin orphanage and the Artane Boys Band is apparantly well known – perhaps the horse touched a chord with JP McManus who I think was also an orphan?
<br>Just to throw in a comment about the Jonjo horses – it may be entirely irrelevant, but …
Two years ago at the first Cheltenham meeting, I fell into conversation with a lady who was married to a racing official and they lived close to Jackdaws Castle and had done so for many years.
When talk turned to the chances of Jonjo’s runner in the race we were waiting to watch, she told me that local farmers to a man refused to keep livestock on the land now occupied by the stables. The believed it to be a place that was both cold and damp year round and haven for disease in the stock. Outsiders that had tried farming there had always been forced to give up and move on, which is presumably why the place was on the market when the Duke’s patrons were looking for land close to his old yard at Condicote.
This may indeed just be an old wives tale (she was at least a middle aged wife!), but given the number of seemingly fit, healthy and classy horses that go to Jackdaws and never seem right again, it certainly left me wondering.
AP
Quote: from jackane24 on 6:25 am on Oct. 8, 2006[br]Bin Suroor for me, without doubt or hesitation. They are not a Mark Prescott stable, training a load of handicappers. Yet that is what it seems like they have done all year. Where are all their Group winners?
<br>
ok well you did ask, so he is a list of their group/listed race winners of 2006:
Electrocutionist (2 times)<br>Discreet Cat (2)<br>Satchem (2)<br>Pictavia (3)<br>Librettist (4)<br>Echo Of Light (3)<br>Ashkal Way (3)<br>Reunite<br>Iffraaj (2)<br>Cherry Mix<br>Belenus<br>Caradak (2)<br>Imperial Stride
The disappointing thing for them is that not many have come at G1 level.
Overall strike rate of around 34%
<br>
– perhaps the horse touched a chord with JP McManus who I think was also an orphan?
NO HE WASNT!!
SHL
Quote: from Galejade on 11:23 am on Oct. 8, 2006[br]Hey jeremy,
To say Artane Boys is quirky might be right but VILE I take the strongest objection to calling any horse that. I bred him and sold him as a yearling  and  physically he was a lovely horse and very easy to handle. <br>
<br>Hi Galejade, thanks for your reply.
In so far as my post was a reply to DJ and Drone’s assertions regarding McManus animals’ behaviour under Jonjo’s care, it should not be assumed I was indicating Artane Boys has had attitude problems throughout his entire life.
You insist he was a sweeter animal when younger, and I have no reason to doubt that. However, any suggestion that he isn’t something far worse nowadays – howsoever that has come about – isn’t telling the whole truth, from where I’m sitting.
It’s mere opinion, of course, but I don’t regard "Vile" as too strong an epiphet for a horse, if he or she be one with a deep-set disinclination to do its job on the racecourse (and Artane Boys’ refusal to go on and win a Uttoxeter seller this summer in particular has to count as one such example, however it may pain any of his most ardent defenders), or one with form on the board where displaying potentially lethal traits such as diving through wings of obstacles (which are not otherwise able to be explained away) is concerned.
It is that brutal honesty which underpins the post-race analysis work I’ve done for the national press. Without wishing to speak for them, I suspect it is the same honesty which, for example, drives MacKenzie and Harris to accord certain animals similar and indeed stronger descriptions in Hunter Chasers and Point-to-Pointers year after year.
I don’t seek to go out blackening the name of horses forever, and if Artane Boys can ever show the same enthusiasm for life and racing as he did under your care then I’d be as delighted as anyone to witness it. He is, however, a world away from that on the most recent evidence.
Jeremy<br>(graysonscolumn)
<br>(Edited by graysonscolumn at 3:49 pm on Oct. 8, 2006)<br>
(Edited by graysonscolumn at 3:53 pm on Oct. 8, 2006)
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
thedarkknight Posted on 8:43 am on Oct. 7, 2006 <br>Saeed Bin Suroor would be a standout pick for me.
I have to agree 100% barely any of last years acquisitions (some smart) have seen a racetrack this year (bringing them straight from dubai to a freezing cold newmarket probably didnt help but even still), plus they killed electrocutionist in training. Woeful.
Dermot Weld (irish 1,000 gns winner aside) hasnt really looked the force of the past few years aswell.
Stoute hasnt had much of a stable this year but give him his dues (im generally not a fan) he has done well with what hes had.
I also reckon o’briens 2yos have not looked amazing so far this year. Holy Roman Emperor and Eagle mountain are the best but even they look hard to place for next year.
I think Noseda and Chapple-hyam have made some shrewd breeze up buys and look to have some very smart 2yos for next year.
Quote: from SirHarryLewis on 11:04 am on Oct. 8, 2006[br]
THe idea that McCoy is not ideal for mentally fragile horses makes sense when one observes his style but surely there is actually little evidence of this. For one thing, I believe that most horses are mentally fragile and more to the point, its the hard headed ones that can be just as troublesome. Any jockey or trainer who fails to understand or get inside an animals head would be doomed to failure. Ive never seen evidence of horses running better for the other top jocks in place of McCoy.
McCoy is tremendous at getting the best out of the ‘hard headed’ thinker: the capable but lazy horse that needs rousting, or in the preferred jargon ‘needs his mind making up for him’.
By ‘mentally fragile’ I was meaning the timid horse who resents strong handling, being whipped and is hesitant/nervous at fences. Such horses may respond better to gentle coaxing and ‘soft hands’. Of the top jocks TJ Murphy is more adept at this than AP imo.
Plenty of the Jonjo/JP horses seem – to my eyes – to have lost their confidence, due in large part I suspect to the bug that has plagued the stable for so long (and looks as though it may have returned) as much as any shortcomings in the training regime. This lack of confidence and them possibly feeling the residual or continuing effects of illness (physically fragile too maybe) doesn’t strike me as them being the ideal mounts for McCoy.
Quite prepared to believe I’m talking out me butt though as I can’t think of any actual examples to illustrate the theory.
Agree completely that a major part of a trainer’s job is to get beneath the skin and inside the head of the horses in his care to try and gain an understanding of their nature and character.
Should add that I’ve nothing against Jonjo and JP; both are likeable coves and it would please me no end if the Jackdaws venture eventually prospers.
NH needs owners with mountains of disposable wedge to throw at the game; but it needs spending in a way that benefits the sport/breed best.
Quote: from Librettist on 11:46 am on Oct. 8, 2006[br]
ok well you did ask, so he is a list of their group/listed race winners of 2006:
Electrocutionist (2 times)<br>Discreet Cat (2)<br>Satchem (2)<br>Pictavia (3)<br>Librettist (4)<br>Echo Of Light (3)<br>Ashkal Way (3)<br>Reunite<br>Iffraaj (2)<br>Cherry Mix<br>Belenus<br>Caradak (2)<br>Imperial Stride
I’m talking about in the UK. Ashkal Way, Discreet Cat, Electrocutionist, Cherry Mix have done all of their winning outside the UK.
Librettist has actually only won 3 Group races, and all outside the UK.
Echo of Light won 1 of his outside the UK.
Caradak won his Group 1 in France.
Which means 13 Group wins in the UK for Godolphin this year…..
Don’t think you’re talking sphericals, Drone – I think I’d go along with most of that. I’ve lost count of the number of idle gets I watched McCoy manage to galvanise into winning either side of his lay-off this season, whereas I suspect only TJM would have got King’s Brook to win those two big handicap chases recently.
SHL – in the summer stable tour the Sportsman ran on Peter Bowen he admitted there were a couple of his charges who wouldn’t go a yard for McCoy. In no way was it a loaded statement by Bowen, just statement of fact. I’m pretty sure Ballycassidy was one example.
Jeremy<br>(graysonscolumn)<br>
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
Quote: from Drone on 9:05 pm on Oct. 8, 2006[br]
Quote: from SirHarryLewis on 11:04 am on Oct. 8, 2006[br]
THe idea that McCoy is not ideal for mentally fragile horses makes sense when one observes his style but surely there is actually little evidence of this. For one thing, I believe that most horses are mentally fragile and more to the point, its the hard headed ones that can be just as troublesome. Any jockey or trainer who fails to understand or get inside an animals head would be doomed to failure. Ive never seen evidence of horses running better for the other top jocks in place of McCoy.
McCoy is tremendous at getting the best out of the ‘hard headed’ thinker: the capable but lazy horse that needs rousting, or in the preferred jargon ‘needs his mind making up for him’.
By ‘mentally fragile’ I was meaning the timid horse who resents strong handling, being whipped and is hesitant/nervous at fences. Such horses may respond better to gentle coaxing and ‘soft hands’. Of the top jocks TJ Murphy is more adept at this than AP imo.
Plenty of the Jonjo/JP horses seem – to my eyes – to have lost their confidence, due in large part I suspect to the bug that has plagued the stable for so long (and looks as though it may have returned) as much as any shortcomings in the training regime. This lack of confidence and them possibly feeling the residual or continuing effects of illness (physically fragile too maybe) doesn’t strike me as them being the ideal mounts for McCoy.
Quite prepared to believe I’m talking out me butt though as I can’t think of any actual examples to illustrate the theory.
Agree completely that a major part of a trainer’s job is to get beneath the skin and inside the head of the horses in his care to try and gain an understanding of their nature and character.
Should add that I’ve nothing against Jonjo and JP; both are likeable coves and it would please me no end if the Jackdaws venture eventually prospers.
NH needs owners with mountains of disposable wedge to throw at the game; but it needs spending in a way that benefits the sport/breed best.
<br>
I understood well what you mean by timid horses Drone but my point is thus. As someone who has spent my life around horses, I generally find it hard to believe that anyone could be a top jockey without being able to deal with mentally fragile horses because most racehorses are never far from the edge. A guy who cant form a realtionship in the saddle with horses that needed to be beaten into everything wouldnt have a substantial career in my opinion.
I take your point about JJ but why should Pipes or anybody elses horses be all much mentally tougher then JJ even after a bug.
Unless anyone proves to me by showing definite examples of horses that clearly go better for other jockeys then Ap,then to me, its all just soundbiting. Bowen isnt the first trainer to make a comment like that…so did Henrietta with regard to BM but Jim lewis didnt agree and his record wasnt so bad on him.
I make these comments more after hearing an Irish trainer (forget who) who said last week that he likes McCoy a lot because when he tells him not to beat a horse, he doesnt. Something I never really thought about.
SHL
Quote: from SirHarryLewis on 3:43 pm on Oct. 9, 2006[br]<br>As someone who has spent my life around horses, I generally find it hard to believe that anyone could be a top jockey without being able to deal with mentally fragile horses because most racehorses are never far from the edge. A guy who cant form a realtionship in the saddle with horses that needed to be beaten into everything wouldnt have a substantial career in my opinion.
Fair enough SHL and I’m prepared to accept your point as unlike you I don’t have the considerable advantage of hands-on experience with horses so I’m not in a position to query your reasoning.
I’m beginning to think APRacing’s pal’s point about Jackdaws being the badlands is more fact than apocryphal fantasy.
Quote: from Drone on 4:04 pm on Oct. 9, 2006[br]
Quote: from SirHarryLewis on 3:43 pm on Oct. 9, 2006[br]<br>As someone who has spent my life around horses, I generally find it hard to believe that anyone could be a top jockey without being able to deal with mentally fragile horses because most racehorses are never far from the edge. A guy who cant form a realtionship in the saddle with horses that needed to be beaten into everything wouldnt have a substantial career in my opinion.
Fair enough SHL and I’m prepared to accept your point as unlike you I don’t have the considerable advantage of hands-on experience with horses so I’m not in a position to query your reasoning.
I’m beginning to think APRacing’s pal’s point about Jackdaws being the badlands is more fact than apocryphal fantasy.
Well Drone theres notthing wrong with your reasoning and Ive heard some trainers state similar things to you. Personally I just believe that he looks harder on a horse then he is. Actually sometimes when I see him at work, I think the animal he is riding will never run again but oddly enough, they do.
The bad land theory is interesting. Certainly within the rearing and development of horses it is imperative to have the right space. We have a spot beside ballydoyle where we leave our store horses off and its itscredible how that limestone reagion seems to do for them. <br>I wonder if JJ has any prominent trainers in the viscinity??
(Edited by SirHarryLewis at 4:18 pm on Oct. 9, 2006)
SHL
My vote would go to Jonjo all the way – what has happened there?! There was a time when Jonjo was seen as a shrewdie – a runner in a selling hurdle and it was a case of "nudge, nudge, wink, wink – must be having it off" amidst the scramble to get on. Nowadays they’re finishing down the field in said sellers – you just can’t treat a Jonjo horse with the respect you used to. Come to think of it – JP owned horses finishing tailed in sellers? What’s that all about?! Some shrewd purchases there…..
Quote: from jackane24 on 12:39 pm on Oct. 9, 2006[br]
Quote: from Librettist on 11:46 am on Oct. 8, 2006[br]
ok well you did ask, so he is a list of their group/listed race winners of 2006:
Electrocutionist (2 times)<br>Discreet Cat (2)<br>Satchem (2)<br>Pictavia (3)<br>Librettist (4)<br>Echo Of Light (3)<br>Ashkal Way (3)<br>Reunite<br>Iffraaj (2)<br>Cherry Mix<br>Belenus<br>Caradak (2)<br>Imperial Stride
I’m talking about in the UK. Ashkal Way, Discreet Cat, Electrocutionist, Cherry Mix have done all of their winning outside the UK.
Librettist has actually only won 3 Group races, and all outside the UK.
Echo of Light won 1 of his outside the UK.
Caradak won his Group 1 in France.
Which means 13 Group wins in the UK for Godolphin this year…..<br>
But no Group 1s with 2 to go!
<br>SHL,
Jackdaws is pretty much the only yard in that area – Twiston-Davies is about ten miles south, but his yard is much higher up in the Cotswolds. If there are any other trainers around there, they certainly don’t have the facilities or number of horse.
If you look at a map, Jackdaws is in the area between Stow on the Wold and Moreton in the Marsh – that last word might be significant! The Cotswold scarp drops down sharply north of Stow with a drop of several hundred feet.
AP
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