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Stilvi, a cheap swipe would have been using one of your high staking punters as the example – the inference being then that nobody betting lower stakes is entitled to complain about rules being broken. And that rule is broken several times a day, as you know. My point was that whether you bet small or large, if you step out of a punter’s shoes and into an owner’s, your perspective is radically different. Maybe in such a position you would hold to your current views, but you’d be a rare find if you did imo
My point was that whether you bet small or large, if you step out of a punter’s shoes and into an owner’s, your perspective is radically different. Maybe in such a position you would hold to your current views, but you’d be a rare find if you did imo
I whole heartedly agree with the distinction you are making. A timely example was this afternoon’s 3.00 Nottingham when the daughter of Kazzia was backed as if defeat was out of the question. Maybe his orders were to not hit her. Which is fine. However who is to know the filly wouldn’t have picked up with a couple of back handers and gone on to win easily as she suddenly realised she was in a race? Would that really ruin a horse?
The problem we have, and its the one I think Stilvi is alluding to, is that certain yards are running horses in races where there jockeys are being told to go easy on their mounts if they do not come there to win their race on the bridle. This is not running your horse to the best of its ability, and to my eyes the Buick’s and Doyle’s are simply giving up making any effort on certain horses, even though those horses must have shown up well at home.
Perhaps the solution is to have “schooling races” for which there is no betting market. The times/comments are recorded and published in racecards for punters to see. Then in the “real” races connections are left in no doubt that that if their jockeys do not make every reasonable effort to attain the best possible position then the book is thrown at them.
Godolphin and their ilk are in the fortunate position of taking no chances on a couple of smacks, especially with debutants. She might well have picked up; equally, she might have been thoroughly soured when her first experience of being boxed up and sent to what must seem to young horses like some crazy funfair for the first time, ends up with her being hit. Even though Godolphin can afford to miss out on prize money, I think owners and trainers at any level would want the same gentle introduction.
I’ve never owned a horse and probably never will, but many punters seem still to think of them as dumb animals or some kind of machine. The way they’re treated, the tracks they run on, how a race pans out pacewise, how much roughhousing there is in it, whether a horse is kept balanced, relaxed or constantly chivvied, or restrained, or casts a shoe, gets frightened in the stalls, is hit at the right time, is hit at all…myriad factors contribute not only to the outcome of a race but to the development of a horse’s career.
To me, a good jockey isn’t just determined to ride winners. One of the reasons I’m sorry to see Hughesie go was that he almost always did what was best for the horse. His column in the RP was hugely educational imo, and he’d often explain that he knew a race was lost a long way from home, sometimes even shortly after they broke from the stalls. A horse can lose a race simply by coming round a bend on the wrong leg, and that can be some way from home. It’s one of the reasons I find the sport so fascinating. Anyway, I’m rambling now . . .
Punters who bet an inexperienced horse expecting that horse will be given the same treatment by his rider as a seasoned handicapper simply do not know enough about horses, and the penalty they pay is losing their cash. Yes, the BHA have rules in place, but fortunately the stewards know enough about the realities of nurturing horses to turn a blind eye more than once a day.
Good post Joe. And these are all factors any knowledgeable punter would take into consideration before placing a bet. Towards the end of his life you wouldn’t back a Henry Cecil horse first time out or at the start of a new season as Tom was normally under orders to be gentle and would rarely get serious unless he had a chance of winning and even then it would only be one or two gentle smacks. Compare that to earlier years when you almost always wanted to be on the latest first-time-out Cecil hotpot! Some trainers call it “first day at school” and I like the analogy, as a father of 3 little ones, you want them to want to go back the next day!
Of course you are making a bit of a guess if you back ANY horse first time out as you never really know how they will go on the racetrack, let alone if they will like the ground, it is the right trip etc. And they often need that first run not just for fitness but for experience. Look at Shalaa – stone cold last first time out, looks an unbeatable machine now.
I am sure that horse yesterday will win nice races. She will strip fitter next time like Comicas and Folkswood have done recently for the same stable and she certainly won’t have been scarred by that tender handling. To be honest I would prefer she were with a better trainer rather than a better rider. Charlie Appleby has a 17% strike rate on the grass compared to 35% on the all-weather which is not very good considering the money they spend on some of his horses. He is not really a trainer known for his first time out winners either, unlike say Mark Johnston (compare the ride SDS gave In Ken’s Memory). Though maybe comparing anyone with MJ is unfair as his horses seem to be made out of steel!
All in all a punter is surely advised to be very wary of backing something running for the first time without weighing up all the factors unless they REALLY know something or if they don’t mind taking a little risk at a worthwhile price if a little birdie has told them something (Besharah 14-1!!!
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7. Richard Hughes (until tomorrow) I don’t think he’s as good as he was a couple of years ago.
I agree but think Hughes has done ok in the past two years considering he broke a vertebrae and never regained his riding posture after imo. Also he lost a lot of regular rides due to owners in the yard selling to the mega buck owners with retainer jockeys. You always look a better jockey when you are winning and a decent horse can make a good jockey look great at times.
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<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Jonibake wrote:</div>
<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gingertipster wrote:</div>
May be I should wait until the 4:20 at Goodwood, but I believe Buick one of the best around.These would be my top 10 of British Based Jockeys:
1. Ryan Moore
2. Frankie Dettori
3. Silvestre De Sousa
4. William Buick
5. James Doyle
6. Daniel Tudhope
7. Richard Hughes (until tomorrow) I don’t think he’s as good as he was a couple of years ago.
8. George Baker
9. Richard Kingscote
10. Philip MakinNot far off Ginge but surely SDS is at least number 2 right now. His riding in the last 6/8 weeks has been superb. He has a clock in his head and is easily the best riding from the front. He is also brilliant from the stalls and seems to always get his horses in the right position in a race. Add to that his power-packed finish and you have pretty much the complete package. He had been picking up too many whip bans but has even seemed to have sorted that problem out recently.
I had the pleasure of a day in his company a few years back and he told me about his apprenticeship growing up in Brazil and how the style of racing there really helps him here. They have a lot of very short sprints there so breaking well is always important as is pace in the race so he grew up knowing his fractions. He hardly ever gets his fractions wrong if you notice.
I tipped him for the top a few years back and am delighted to be on him at 25’s this year (albeit I’ve had a little bit of luck with that bet!!!)
Sorry this post has been off topic – I like William Buick but share the thoughts of Ivanjica that he is riding for a poor old outfit these days. In fact he does better when riding the Johnston horses. I never quite understood why they sacked SDS to be honest as he never rode a bad race for them. Personally I think Doyle and Buick would have been better sticking with Prince Khaled and JG.
It was a very close run thing who I’d put second and third Joni. If I was betting on a run-of-the-mill race think I’d plump for SDS too; for the same reasons you give. I too have been a big fan since first coming on to the scene. May be it is just the fact SDS does not get the opportunities at the highest level; but Frankie just edges it for that reason.
Is there truth in the Prince K is going to lessen his interest in racing? If so that may have been a part of the decision. Also, money is probably a big factor. Buick might be regretting it now (Golden Horn).
About a year ago Prince K said that he was ageing and none of his younger family members were interested in racing. He was therefore mulling over dispensing with his owner and breeding operation. Doyle’s decision to go to Godolphin may have been partly affected by the retirements of Kingman and Noble Mission which left no Abdullah flag bearer for him to ride in the UK.
7. Richard Hughes (until tomorrow) I don’t think he’s as good as he was a couple of years ago.
I agree but think Hughes has done ok in the past two years considering he broke a vertebrae and never regained his riding posture after imo. Also he lost a lot of regular rides due to owners in the yard selling to the mega buck owners with retainer jockeys. You always look a better jockey when you are winning and a decent horse can make a good jockey look great at times.
When Mars had a fatal heart attack and died under Hughes in the desert , throwing him over the rails, he did indeed sustain broken vertebrae. he was also consequently troubled by painful sciatica (and may still be for all I know). I’d concur that he wasn’t the same rider afterwards and the death of his father (who he used to speak to daily by phone) seemed to affect him as well. It is also true that his retirement was hastened by the change in dynamics in the Hannon yard since jnr took over. There are now 100 plus horses in the yard that he couldn’t ride due to retained rider arrangements, including many of the best looking and faster juveniles. Pretty much anything half useful within the yard is sold to Arab owners Sheikh Joann and Godolphin at the right price , often at short notice pre Ascot or Goodwood and Hughes lost the ride to retained rider- Olympic Glory, Toormore, Night of Thunder plus juveniles Log out Island and King of Rooks. He did keep the ride on Toronado as he’d ridden it before. At the top level you look forward to the big races and there wasn’t much point in hanging around.
7. Richard Hughes (until tomorrow) I don’t think he’s as good as he was a couple of years ago.
I agree but think Hughes has done ok in the past two years considering he broke a vertebrae and never regained his riding posture after imo. Also he lost a lot of regular rides due to owners in the yard selling to the mega buck owners with retainer jockeys. You always look a better jockey when you are winning and a decent horse can make a good jockey look great at times.
Hughsie did “ok” in the final season, but only ok. Take a look at the Jockeys Championship and concentrate on Strike Rates (SR). You might expect a worse SR because he did not have the Godolphin and Qatar rides; but the Hannon yard is still fairly good without them. At 16% the SR is a full 5% worse than George Baker, 3% worse than Daniel Tudhope, 1% worse than Philip Makin and the same as Richard Kingscote. Do those jockeys have as good a job as Hughsie (even taking Godolphin and Qatar in to account)? It was touch and go whether Hughsie got in my top 9. imo He’s also made more mistakes this term.
Value Is EverythingPeople who work – or have worked – in the racing industry often don’t like being reminded about it but actually they all have obligations to punters – who fund the sport via the Levy – as well as to owners.
Yes, owners put a lot of money into racing but that does not give them carte Blanche.
There are rules – there to protect the integrity of the game and to try to ensure that whenever a punter has a bet their selection gets maximum assistance from the saddle to try to win.
Some comments on this thread are so dated they should be museum exhibits.
Telling inexperienced punters they don’t know enough about racing and that many horses won’t be trying that hard on certain occasions and that stewards are right to turn a blind eye to it is a great way to accelerate the exodus of betting money into other sports.
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If you really want to see the exodus of betting money increase (it began a long time ago, anyway), tell owners they must submit to their young horses being ruined by hard rides so that ‘inexperienced punters’ can be satisfied. A year into that crackdown, count the owners who are still here.
Joe,
Don’t get me wrong – punters whinge that for every £100 bet, maybe only £80 is returned to punters in winnings.
Well for every £100 invested in racehorse ownership, it’s more like a tenner.
Without owners there can be no racing – I get that.
But without punters there can’t be much in the way of prize money.
You’re right, the exodus started years ago – because punters have been treated with contempt for years – even by other punters who think you need to serve some kind of apprenticeship for the right to bet on horses and to help fund the sport.
If I have a bet on the football this weekend I know my team is trying.
The 2yo debutante, the horse having its third run for a handicap mark, whatever – they should be trying too, actually.
Unless you want racing to continue its slow DEATH.
I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Ian,
the game’s on its way out anyway, for reasons unrelated to ownership or the application of the rules, but on the subject under discussion, we’ll agree to differ. Or at least I will!
I am happy to agree too, Joe – and I do enjoy reading your postings, even if I don’t agree with all of them. =D
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