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Another factor I was thinking about was that Champion trainer Paul Nicholls seems to dominate the chasing scene throughout the winter but (in recent years at any rate) has struggled at the festival (0 for 72 since Kauto’s Gold Cup in 2009). Is he simply very cleverly bucking the ‘keep them for Cheltenham’ trend and making hay as a result?
On the subject of lower quality fare in Britain at the moment, I can’t comment on whether that is true or not, racing is generally quiet either side of the sea this time of year, but it may in some way be related to the number of powerful owners in Ireland. Gigginstown, the Potts, Barry Connell and JP are buying up all the pointers while Ricci is bringing in plenty of French horses. Presumably, plenty of these animals would have been sold to Britain in the past. While this is great in many ways for Irish racing, it brings with it its own problems with horses in the same ownership.stable avoiding each other etc.
On the subject of lower quality fare in Britain at the moment, I can’t comment on whether that is true or not, racing is generally quiet either side of the sea this time of year, but it may in some way be related to the number of powerful owners in Ireland. Gigginstown, the Potts, Barry Connell and JP are buying up all the pointers while Ricci is bringing in plenty of French horses. Presumably, plenty of these animals would have been sold to Britain in the past. While this is great in many ways for Irish racing, it brings with it its own problems with horses in the same ownership.stable avoiding each other etc.
Nicholls has recently declared that he has mainly split from Anthony Bromley, it was Highflyer who brought the superstars into Ditcheat, Master Minded, Kauto Star, Silviniaco Conti et al. Nicholls has said he is short of good hurdlers, no wonder as Highflyer has bought them for Simon Munir. Bromley top man for finding French superstars and Nicholls is still reaping the rewards of their input.
The stats fit with what we’ve all noticed, but I think there are two other reasons why horses don’t run so often prior to Cheltenham.
The first is the reduction in opportunities to run top class horses. The loss of conditions chases at Wincanton mentioned earlier in this thread is typical and there are also far fewer handicaps open to the highest rated horses. I think it was Mike (Betlarge) who wrote in another thread about the likes of Badsworth Boy running in gaff track handicaps under 12st 7lbs as a prep race for Cheltenham. I can remember seeing Silver Buck at Hereford also with 12-7 against rivals all carying 10st and that would have been very close to the Gold Cup.
The second and probably more significant is that there are now many more valuable options after Cheltenham. Twenty years ago, after the Gold Cup there was really only the National and the Whitbread and absolutely no top class level weight chases. The Aintree meeting has grown massively in status and prize money since then. And Punchestown likewise, twenty years ago it was mostly about bumpers and cross country races and British runners were very rare.
Now there are Grade 1 races at every distance after Cheltenham with six figure prize funds, so arriving in March with a fresh horse makes complete sense.
Not so sure that the better horses would run in handicaps even if they were eligible. The mindset is just against taking the risk.
As for the fresh horse how many horses actually double up, let alone take in the three Festivals? Given the difference in tracks plenty of horses will just target Aintree. Many will just have had four runs and that will be it for the season. It just looks as if we are pandering to a weaker breed.
If quality were any marker the National Hunt season may as well just close down for 6-8 weeks.
The stats fit with what we’ve all noticed, but I think there are two other reasons why horses don’t run so often prior to Cheltenham.
The first is the reduction in opportunities to run top class horses. The loss of conditions chases at Wincanton mentioned earlier in this thread is typical and there are also far fewer handicaps open to the highest rated horses. I think it was Mike (Betlarge) who wrote in another thread about the likes of Badsworth Boy running in gaff track handicaps under 12st 7lbs as a prep race for Cheltenham. I can remember seeing Silver Buck at Hereford also with 12-7 against rivals all carying 10st and that would have been very close to the Gold Cup.
The second and probably more significant is that there are now many more valuable options after Cheltenham. Twenty years ago, after the Gold Cup there was really only the National and the Whitbread and absolutely no top class level weight chases. The Aintree meeting has grown massively in status and prize money since then. And Punchestown likewise, twenty years ago it was mostly about bumpers and cross country races and British runners were very rare.
Now there are Grade 1 races at every distance after Cheltenham with six figure prize funds, so arriving in March with a fresh horse makes complete sense.
Not so sure that the better horses would run in handicaps even if they were eligible. The mindset is just against taking the risk.
As for the fresh horse how many horses actually double up, let alone take in the three Festivals? Given the difference in tracks plenty of horses will just target Aintree. Many will just have had four runs and that will be it for the season. It just looks as if we are pandering to a weaker breed.
If quality were any marker the National Hunt season may as well just close down for 6-8 weeks.
Agree that not many horses will take in the three festivals, but there’s usually a few. Don Cossack and Guitar Pete did it last year, and both struggled at Punchestown. Sprinter Sacre also did it two seasons ago and was below his best at Punchestown as well.
I actually think the past six weeks or so have been very good in terms of quality, and have thrown up some terrific moments.
We’ve had two of the most memorable days racing of recent years at Leopardstown, firstly with Hurricane Fly winning yet again at Leopardstown and receiving a fantastic reception from the crowd, and secondly with AP McCoy winning the Hennessy on Carlingford Lough. I was on the balcony over-looking the parade ring when the Fly was led back in and the stampede of people running out under the stand to welcome him in is like nothing I’ve seen before. When AP was interviewed after winning, you could hear a pin drop around the enclosure, such is the level of respect the public have for a man that is very much thought of as one of our own even though he has plied his trade for many years in Britain. How many years I’ll have to wait to witness moments like either of the above again I’m not sure but I haven’t witnessed any better advertisement to ‘go racing’.
Sure these past couple of weeks have been quiet but I think that is to be expected with Cheltenham now under two weeks away.
Agree that not many horses will take in the three festivals, but there’s usually a few. Don Cossack and Guitar Pete did it last year, and both struggled at Punchestown. Sprinter Sacre also did it two seasons ago and was below his best at Punchestown as well.
I actually think the past six weeks or so have been very good in terms of quality, and have thrown up some terrific moments.
We’ve had two of the most memorable days racing of recent years at Leopardstown, firstly with Hurricane Fly winning yet again at Leopardstown and receiving a fantastic reception from the crowd, and secondly with AP McCoy winning the Hennessy on Carlingford Lough. I was on the balcony over-looking the parade ring when the Fly was led back in and the stampede of people running out under the stand to welcome him in is like nothing I’ve seen before. When AP was interviewed after winning, you could hear a pin drop around the enclosure, such is the level of respect the public have for a man that is very much thought of as one of our own even though he has plied his trade for many years in Britain. How many years I’ll have to wait to witness moments like either of the above again I’m not sure but I haven’t witnessed any better advertisement to ‘go racing’.
Sure these past couple of weeks have been quiet but I think that is to be expected with Cheltenham now under two weeks away.
Just to clarify none of my comments were made in respect of Irish racing. Yes, there are probably too many good horses in too few hands but they regularly produce decent cards and basically keep the show on the road.
Agree that not many horses will take in the three festivals, but there’s usually a few. Don Cossack and Guitar Pete did it last year, and both struggled at Punchestown. Sprinter Sacre also did it two seasons ago and was below his best at Punchestown as well.
I actually think the past six weeks or so have been very good in terms of quality, and have thrown up some terrific moments.
We’ve had two of the most memorable days racing of recent years at Leopardstown, firstly with Hurricane Fly winning yet again at Leopardstown and receiving a fantastic reception from the crowd, and secondly with AP McCoy winning the Hennessy on Carlingford Lough. I was on the balcony over-looking the parade ring when the Fly was led back in and the stampede of people running out under the stand to welcome him in is like nothing I’ve seen before. When AP was interviewed after winning, you could hear a pin drop around the enclosure, such is the level of respect the public have for a man that is very much thought of as one of our own even though he has plied his trade for many years in Britain. How many years I’ll have to wait to witness moments like either of the above again I’m not sure but I haven’t witnessed any better advertisement to ‘go racing’.
Sure these past couple of weeks have been quiet but I think that is to be expected with Cheltenham now under two weeks away.
Just to clarify none of my comments were made in respect of Irish racing. Yes, there are probably too many good horses in too few hands but they regularly produce decent cards and basically keep the show on the road.
Ah right, in that case, scrap the above
Too many horses in too few hands is probably the biggest problem over here but it’s probably the case that if the riches were spread out more, there’d be more sold abroad rather than further down the Irish ladder, so it’s a necessary evil of sorts for those of us who want to see the best Irish horses stay on Irish soil.
I’ve owned racehorses for 30 years. Just one scenario: 1994 a horse I bought for 2k won a Chepstow NH Bumper he won 1600. Jump forward 20 years, I paid 25k for an Irish store who won a Chepstow NH Bumper he won 1300. The training fees for horse former horse was about 10k per year and around 20k for the latter. Many of the owners I have met over the years are drastically reducing their input into racing/pulled out. The racing offered now is starting to reflect the owners situation. You will only invest as an owner if the sport reflects that investment, and owners constantly being informed that they are ‘only in it as a hobby’ it seems they are not in it as a hobby. The type of owners ( Graham Roach as a good example) that are good for the NH game are quickly reducing.
If Musselburgh, Fakenham or Ffos Las put on a bumper with £3000 to the winner would you travel and support them? I refuse to accept the complaints from owners and trainers re prize money when they refuse to back the courses that do provide good prizes simply because they are not in the middle of England.
The reason that fields in Ireland are so much bigger is for one simple reason. There’s much less racing. In the short term the only way to increases fields is to reduce the race programme.
If there was 1 2 mile novice chase worth 5k instead of 3 worth 2k or so then you would have to run there or not at all and seeing a lot of novice chases are now 3 or 4 runner affairs nobody could complain if this happened.
Someone needs to take the lead and rapidly reduce the number of duplicated races and even the number of meetings as what is happening now is no good for anyone.
It was me actually writing about Badsworth Boy but not to worry.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Some really interesting points in these posts; hadn’t considered the impact of the Lloyds crash before.
I think that Cheltenham has just got too big and high profile and swallowed up many of the other races, which now, are mere trials. The emphasis on “Festivals” appears to have made racing less competitive generally.
I have been following racing since the early 1970s.If there was 1 2 mile novice chase worth 5k instead of 3 worth 2k or so then you would have to run there or not at all and seeing a lot of novice chases are now 3 or 4 runner affairs nobody could complain if this happened.
Someone needs to take the lead and rapidly reduce the number of duplicated races and even the number of meetings as what is happening now is no good for anyone.
I’ve owned racehorses for 30 years. Just one scenario: 1994 a horse I bought for 2k won a Chepstow NH Bumper he won 1600. Jump forward 20 years, I paid 25k for an Irish store who won a Chepstow NH Bumper he won 1300. The training fees for horse former horse was about 10k per year and around 20k for the latter. Many of the owners I have met over the years are drastically reducing their input into racing/pulled out. The racing offered now is starting to reflect the owners situation. You will only invest as an owner if the sport reflects that investment, and owners constantly being informed that they are ‘only in it as a hobby’ it seems they are not in it as a hobby. The type of owners ( Graham Roach as a good example) that are good for the NH game are quickly reducing.
If Musselburgh, Fakenham or Ffos Las put on a bumper with £3000 to the winner would you travel and support them? I refuse to accept the complaints from owners and trainers re prize money when they refuse to back the courses that do provide good prizes simply because they are not in the middle of England.
The reason that fields in Ireland are so much bigger is for one simple reason. There’s much less racing. In the short term the only way to increases fields is to reduce the race programme.
Ok, mega problems with logging in, I had replied but it landed in cyber soup on the forum change over. I answer your question, yes we did support bumpers/races that were a distance away, we went twice to Carlisle/Fakenham/Exeter/Perth and Punchestown/Galway. Problem is that the cost of travel is around 1.50 plus per mile plus VAT, lads/trainers expenses etc. The trainers are not interesting in splitting costs between owners and it becomes a very expensive exercise. Interestingly, France Galop give every owner 3,000 euro per year towards travel costs. Owners are constantly told it is their hobby, there is an enormous amount livelihoods in racing that are sat on someones hobby.
Some interesting comments about running at 3 festivals. Having gone to several Punchestowns one of the first betting rules was to oppose horses that had already run at Cheltenham and Aintree – didn’t always work but helped most of the time…
I was thinking tonight back to the early 2000s and the campaigning of Best Mate. I am sure other horses before then were campaigned in a similar fashion but the successful, and high profile, manner in which that horse had his campaign mapped solely around Cheltenham seemed to mark a turning point. That success seemed to encourage others to become wary of over-facing their stars with too many races and/or heavy ground. No idea if there is any evidence for my supposition.
Am sure Best Mate influenced people to run their good horses less often. See You Then also had very few other runs and scored a hat-trick of Champion Hurdles for Henderson. However, I believe he was brittle. I remember looking up the Knight yard’s average number of runs per horse. As I remember Best Mate wasn’t much different to the average horse in the stable. Compared to most trainers Henrietta ran her horses less often, including lesser class animals as well as top class individuals. Seemed as though Hen liked having her horses at home rather than race them.
Value Is EverythingNot in total agreement here; The Cheltenham festival is a tremendous crescendo to the racing scene, one that other sports would kill for. making it 4 day dragged the arse out of it, however. The Ryanair, the 3 mile novices hurdle, both take away form the bigger races. Otherwise we’d have e.g. Don Cossack in the Gold Cup, and Hidden Cyclone in the 2-mile chase. We’ve lost some of the white-hot intensity.
The extra races are killing Cheltenham, there was nothing wrong with the 3 day festival and now it is dragged out by adding such races as the Martin Pipe and the 2 1/2 mile novice chase, they have no place at Cheltenham and could easily be run at another course in another day if they were needed.
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