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As another poster recently suggested I eat strawberries and believe in fairies it will not surprise any of you to know that I was strangely moved when I glimpsed at the trainer’s championship standings in the Racing Post today. Poor Sir Henry is forever stuck on 18 winners in about 23rd place but right next to him in 24th place is his wife! The two of them side by side. Made ME smile anyway although I know one is not supposed to be sentimental these days!
But today, as I lay on my sunbed in Cadiz dreaming of fairies and munching on me strawbs, I couldn’t help but ponder more on the question I have posed as the title of this thread. I brought it up on my own thread but thought some of you might have some ideas.
So what happens next at Warren Place? Yesterday I suggested there were three options but I suppose there are at least four:
1. Warren Place closes down at the end of the season.
2. Lady Cecil keeps her name on the license and Mike Marshall (or someone else) continues as assistant.
3. Mike Marshall takes over the license at some point – probably at the end of the season.
4. They bring in someone else to run the show. Perhaps Henry’s nephew Ben who is a successful trainer in California.
Looking at those four options –
1. Warren Place closing down – This would not be a decision anyone involved at Warren Place would consciously take but would more likely be a consequence of bad decisions taken in the next few months. Stables need horses; horses need owners, owner’s need to believe that their horses are in good hands. Let us be under no illusion that the patronage of Prince Khaled is central to the immediate future of the stable. If he goes, the future is dim. Lady Jane has spoken highly of “Team Cecil” this week and clearly they have fantastic staff. But they will have to keep that staff and to keep that staff they will need horses. They are already down on two years olds this year with only 36. The sales are coming up. How many owners are going to risk sending expensive purchases to a new team? Current AND prospective owners will need to know what the plans are sooner rather than later.
2. Lady Cecil retaining the license – Nothing against the wonderful Lady Jane at all but if Barack Obama died tomorrow Michelle would not become President – Joe Biden would. Is Lady Jane really qualified to be a high profile trainer or should the license go to Mike Marhall? Would she even want to run the show? If she decided she wanted to continue Henry’s legacy herself what would that mean to Mike? Would he be content to stay as an assistant when the reality would be that he was running the show? It may be that they decide the best way of keeping the owners is to have Lady Cecil as the figurehead. As I said It will be all about keeping stable numbers up next year. Perhaps they will ALL see that as being the best option including Mike. Or maybe I am being unfair on Lady Cecil. Is she hands on in the running of things? Has she learnt enough in the last few years to be able to keep the flag flying? There are some on this forum who think that all a trainer needs is owners, hard work, luck and staff. If that really is the case, she should be fine shouldn’t she? Or is there more to it than that? Does she have the instinct, patience, attention to detail, understanding of what is right for each individual horse that others might think are important qualities and that her husband had in abundance? “Green fingers for horses” as Charles St George once put it. By all accounts Lady Jane pretty much kept Henry alive over the last few years and her bravery and stoicism at Royal Ascot this week brought a lump to my throat. She clearly has great strength of character. Perhaps she CAN do the job herself.
3. Mike Marshall takes over at the end of the season. Mike has almost certainly learnt lots from Sir Henry over the last few years. He will almost certainly WANT to be a trainer in future not just an assistant. He HAS been running the show for the last 8 weeks while Henry was having treatment and the Royal Ascot runners showed that he is doing a great job. BUT. Will he keep the owners? Is he a figure head type? DOES he actually want the job? What will happen to Lady Cecil? The stable has been in the family for a long time. Sir Noel Murless, Sir Henry Cecil. Mike Marshall doesn’t have quite the same ring to it does it?
4. They bring in someone from the outside – How will bringing in someone new affect the current staff? Who will that be? It needs to be someone who can ensure that the owners don’t go elsewhere. As far as I can see that can only be someone from the family and I see Ben as the only viable candidate. But I have heard no rumours of him coming back to the UK so this is just supposition.
My GUESS is that Mike Marshall will get the job at the end of the season. We have seen Roger Varian, a virtual unknown to anyone outside the immediate circle, take over from Michael Jarvis and do a marvellous job. Why should Mike be any different? He has learnt from a master – perhaps the big owners will give him a chance. Perhaps they will even get a Cecil family member to learn the ropes from him. This decision WOULD worry me though as I would be concerned about his leadership qualities. His lack of charisma. Not all trainers have this I know but there IS this legacy with Sir Henry and Warren Place and I would personally find it hard to get used to the idea of him being the boss. Maybe that’s just me though. I know it can never be the same again but for me that would be a DRASTIC change.
My HOPE is that Ben comes back from the States and takes over. Henry used to send him horses and there was clearly still a strong link between the two. I think it would be appropriate that the son of his beloved twin brother takes over the reins. But as I say I have no idea if this is even remotely in the pipeline.
Whatever does happen, the bottom line is that they will need the patronage of Prince Khaled to survive. Without him they will surely struggle. HOWEVER, since Henry’s death, they have done all they possibly could have done. The strike rate is high; the Royal Ascot runners were superb with two winners, a second, a third and a fourth from only 7 runners. The team are doing all they can to prove that the stable can still be effective even without their beloved leader.
As I say, interesting times ahead but, as a strawberry eating fairy, I DO personally hope that the name Cecil can remain at the heart of it all.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I’d love to see Lady Cecil continue with a permanent licence.
Next best option would be for Mike Marshall to take over.
What about Shane Fetherstonhaugh? Surely he knows a thing or two about training horses?
Mike Marshall is a lovely guy but I don’t think he has the wealth of experience required to run a yard of the size and status of Warren Place.
The legalities will be revealing. All of the property combined is worth in the region of £9m. We have no idea at this stage what has been bequeathed and to whom. We know there were debts accrued during the "lean" years. Have they been cleared or will there be a forced sale? Inheritance tax might also be a big driver.
Sheikh Fahd seems keen on building a lasting legacy, perhaps he might step in and put a private trainer in? I think all fans would like to see Warren Place sending out multiple winners at the highest level and a proprietor such as Sheikh Fahd could be the man to do this. He may also look to buy the parts of the Juddmonte empire that will be sold.
I DO personally hope that the name Cecil can remain at the heart of it all.
It wont come as a shock to you Joni but that’s my ideal scenario as well. As I said on another topic no disrespect to Mike Marshall but he doesn’t have the same pull as either Lady Jane or Ben. Hopefully Mike would be happy as the unsung hero working behind the scenes.
Interesting that when Prince Khaled was interviewed after Riposte’s win at RA he was asked by Clare Balding what he thought of Lady Jane training a winner at the meeting and his response was that she’s done well and long may it continue.Yes well noticed BM. I am sure PK will stay loyal – it is just to what extent. Good post also from Ivanjica. I hadn’t thought about the Qatar boys but it is certainly feasible as they are determined to become major players here.
Over the last couple of years Henry was a regular in the list of most wealthy racing people so I hope his estate is in good order but you never know.
David Lanigan would have been the obvious candidate a few years ago but has now moved to Lambourn and is doing well from there. Shane Featherstonehaugh is clearly a magnificent horseman and a vital part of the team but is he trainer material?
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I know the majority all enjoy a Hollywood romantic ending, but this idea that Lady Jane or Ben have more pull than Mike Marshall seems curious. Pull to what? That they happen to have the same surname to one of the greatest trainers of all time? I won’t profess to know how much involvement Lady Jane Cecil has in the training side, but i imagine few do.
I get that many people want to see the continuation of the name Cecil in horse racing. As a name it has dominated racing for 40 years and is something many of you grew up on (sadly not myself). The aeotic pump wants some link or relation to those memories. Still, that chapter in horse racing is now sadly over. Trying to artificially extend it seems false to me.
I know the majority all enjoy a Hollywood romantic ending, but this idea that Lady Jane or Ben have more pull than Mike Marshall seems curious. Pull to what? That they happen to have the same surname to one of the greatest trainers of all time? I won’t profess to know how much involvement Lady Jane Cecil has in the training side, but i imagine few do.
I get that many people want to see the continuation of the name Cecil in horse racing. As a name it has dominated racing for 40 years and is something many of you grew up on (sadly not myself). The aeotic pump wants some link or relation to those memories. Still, that chapter in horse racing is now sadly over. Trying to artificially extend it seems false to me.
Well I suppose if you look at the Pipe’s, the Dunlop’s, the Hannon’s it is a similar situation. If it is at all possible to keep it in the family why not? Warren Place and the Cecil family go back longer than 40 years as Sir Henry took it over from his father in law having inherited his own string from his step father Cecil Boyd Rochfort. There’s nothing wrong with a bit of tradition is there? You see it in racing, you see it in business. A legacy is created and, in an ideal world, gets passed to another family member. Of course in the above examples you have ready made replacements in David, Ed and Richard junior. Perhaps that is not the case at Warren Place!
Of course you are right that just because someone shares the same surname it should not automatically give them more pull over a clearly hard working and dedicated man like Mike Marshall. But Ben Cecil IS a trainer himself and a pretty successful one at that. I am with you in that I have no idea how involved Lady Cecil is/was.
I agree that nobody wants to see the chapter artificially extended and I think we are all realistic enough to know that would not work anyway. If Ben is not interested and Lady Cecil is not qualified then it should obviously pass on to Mike or someone like him from outside the Cecil family. If it doesn’t the likelihood is the stable will not be successful and be forced to close as I pointed out in option 1. The right decision has to be made – it is just the hope of some of us that the right decision is also the romantic one as well!
There must be a LITTLE bit of romance in you somewhere J17!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Well I suppose if you look at the Pipe’s, the Dunlop’s, the Hannon’s it is a similar situation. If it is at all possible to keep it in the family why not? Warren Place and the Cecil family go back longer than 40 years as Sir Henry took it over from his father in law having inherited his own string from his step father Cecil Boyd Rochfort. There’s nothing wrong with a bit of tradition is there? You see it in racing, you see it in business. A legacy is created and, in an ideal world, gets passed to another family member. Of course in the above examples you have ready made replacements in David, Ed and Richard junior. Perhaps that is not the case at Warren Place!
Of course you are right that just because someone shares the same surname it should not automatically give them more pull over a clearly hard working and dedicated man like Mike Marshall. But Ben Cecil IS a trainer himself and a pretty successful one at that. I am with you in that I have no idea how involved Lady Cecil is/was.
I agree that nobody wants to see the chapter artificially extended and I think we are all realistic enough to know that would not work anyway. If Ben is not interested and Lady Cecil is not qualified then it should obviously pass on to Mike or someone like him from outside the Cecil family. If it doesn’t the likelihood is the stable will not be successful and be forced to close as I pointed out in option 1. The right decision has to be made – it is just the hope of some of us that the right decision is also the romantic one as well!
There must be a LITTLE bit of romance in you somewhere J17!!!
I was born into an industrial estate in Bolton, where all i saw in my formative years were lines upon lines of tinned fish.
Who knows what will ensue after the summer/end of year. I just think rational thought is more useful than hollywood romanticism.
With some trainers they do have their son’s heavily involved from an early age. David Pipe, Charlie Hills, Nick Gifford, Richard Hannon Jnr (soon to be i imagine) etc. Though they were heavily involved for a long time and towards the end were likely more involved than their fathers. Cecil meanwhile has no such family cog. I don’t know anything about Ben Cecil, so i won’t meander down that road.
Frankly, i think it is more likely that the stable ceases to operate. Abdulla is winding down himself, the great man himself is no longer here and the allure and attraction of sending horses there thus also disppears for other owners.
We shall see.
Jonibake, I have to take umbrage at your second option comparison. In no way are the situations the same. Michelle Obama isn’t Vice-President of the USA so of course she wouldn’t take over the Presidency. It’s the way the system is designed and has absolutely nothing to do with her capabilities. Lady Cecil, on the other hand, is able to take over at Warren Place if she wants to. There’s no set order she has to follow to say whether she can or not. You’ve given the immediate impression that you think neither woman is able/capable of being in charge. You may not have meant it, but it comes over as sexist.
I say let’s wait and see how the season progresses. It’s far too early to be speculating; they’re just getting over the shock and grief and only now can they start to think about what’s going to happen in the future.
Two things to remember: no matter how good a trainer is, without the right staff to back him/her up they’re never likely to be successful and don’t forget the old saying of "behind every good man is a good woman". Most trainers’ wives pull their weight in the business and help to make them the successes they are. Training racehorses to win is a team effort, never forget it.
Jonibake, I have to take umbrage at your second option comparison. In no way are the situations the same. Michelle Obama isn’t Vice-President of the USA so of course she wouldn’t take over the Presidency. It’s the way the system is designed and has absolutely nothing to do with her capabilities. Lady Cecil, on the other hand, is able to take over at Warren Place if she wants to. There’s no set order she has to follow to say whether she can or not. You’ve given the immediate impression that you think neither woman is able/capable of being in charge. You may not have meant it, but it comes over as sexist.
I say let’s wait and see how the season progresses. It’s far too early to be speculating; they’re just getting over the shock and grief and only now can they start to think about what’s going to happen in the future.
Two things to remember: no matter how good a trainer is, without the right staff to back him/her up they’re never likely to be successful and don’t forget the old saying of "behind every good man is a good woman". Most trainers’ wives pull their weight in the business and help to make them the successes they are. Training racehorses to win is a team effort, never forget it.
Wow. How extraordinary that you can construe my comments as sexist. I suppose some people these days will read into things what they want. A sad reflection on today’s society.
It has nothing to do with her sex. It has to do with whether she is qualified enough to do the job. If she is I would be absolutely delighted. Of course there is no "set order" – I never said there was but nor should the reins be passed to a partner just because they are the partner. My point about the Obama’s would be the same if Hilary was president – perhaps it is a bad analogy but it is certainly not meant to be a sexist one.
I am sorry if you think it too early to be discussing things on a racing forum. If you have ever read any of my posts you will know that I do it out of a great affection for Sir Henry and Warren Place and a "romantic" desire that the legacy continues.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Does Lady Cecil actually have any training skills?
I’ve not heard that she does.
I don’t know her personally of course, but she comes across as a decent sort and I think it unlikely that she’d want to carry on training, even if she were to be granted a full licence (which seems unlikely), if it were to be based merely on sentiment.
Does Lady Cecil actually have any training skills?
I’ve not heard that she does.
And by the same token I presume you haven’t heard that she doesn’t?
Does Lady Cecil actually have any training skills?
I’ve not heard that she does.
And by the same token I presume you haven’t heard that she doesn’t?
I understood that she was originally Sir Henry’s secretary, I don’t think she’s been performing an assistant/pupil role.
I would have have thought that had she been playing some sort of part in the training side of things, it would have been generally known. Nobody in the press has mentioned anything along those lines.
Does anyone know for certain?
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