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quote from johnjdonaghue:
How about Bechers or the Chair in Aintree equally as dangerous, I don’t here any anybody asking for these fences to be modified or banned? Would anyone go so far?
It is well known that both Bechers and The Chair have been extensively modified since the 80’s, which has made both obstacles a fairer test.
The point seems to be that water jumps are trappy obstacles which catch horses out unexpectedly, and whilst few incidents occur at them, the incidents which do happen tend to be serious career/life threatening back or leg injuries.
I for one wouldnt mind seeing them phased out. Was this what happened in Ireland, or have they never existed there? There must be some explanation for this?
Incidentally, a 2004 study of chase races found that the obstacles directly after water jumps consistently saw disproportionately high numbers of fallers.
The suggestion was that water jumps were unusual and disconcerted horses, who then didn’t always readjust to the upcoming ‘standard’ fence. Not sure about this as a hypothesis, but quite an interesting trend nonetheless…
I too would like to know why the Irish don’t have water jumps and also which courses in GB still have water jumps …
I watched the race in Belgium – the fences appeared to be very soft indeed – the horses made great big holes in them – I noticed one horse actually fell coming through one of them on the 2nd circuit! The water jump had a much higher hedge than over here and as such maybe encouraged the horses to jump "normally" and landing in the shallow water with no "edge" as such wasn’t a problem. Strange place for the winning post on the bend … all very interesting. Thanks for the link.
Heres an opinion that appears on Kim Baileys website
"Water jumps might be a spectacle for some, but frankly it is the one fence that when a horse gets it wrong and drags his hind legs in the water, it can easily result in far worse injuries that caused by other fence mistakes.
Not only that, but as it is so small, horses seeing one for the first time can be tempted to hurdle them which can easily be catastrophic; ending up with pulled muscles over their back ends being the least of their injuries.
We must not forget it is perhaps the only fence that a horse will not practice over at home. Lets move on from them, they don’t serve a purpose any more.
Spectacle .. hardly Huntingdon’s is on the far side as was Ascots. Aintree, Newbury Ludlow are about the only courses that have them in front of the stands and more and more course have removed them"
The water jump, though spectacular to watch, didn’t seem to cause too many problems, unlike the bank.
Pretty determined effort from the winner Kan Nejd (incidentally Irish-bred by Indian Ridge), I thought he’d got done on the line. Not the best camera position to judge a finish!
Spot on Venusian. There are several water jumps all over Europe (although different to the UK style), and you see very little, if any fallers there. However, I’ve seen some really bad incidents at banks recently (most notably at Pau last month). Thing is, the ‘water jumps’ in Europe tend just to be water that the horses run through, sometime with a small hurdle at the end (as at Merano in Italy). My feeling is, if people think that the UK water jumps are unfair, then maybe we should take the European line. The main issue in my opinion is that the injuries at UK water jumps seem to occur when horses hit the lip of the water. This problem can be eradicated if courses adapt to the Waregem style water jump.
Re Kan Nejd – we were hoping that he had got done on the line, as the second horse was none other that Helmac, trained by Christian! I wasn’t there last year as I was at Baden-Baden, but he said that he thought Helmac had got up – however the judges favoured the local horse!
Darren – AngloGerman
I watched the race in Belgium – the fences appeared to be very soft indeed – the horses made great big holes in them – I noticed one horse actually fell coming through one of them on the 2nd circuit! The water jump had a much higher hedge than over here and as such maybe encouraged the horses to jump "normally" and landing in the shallow water with no "edge" as such wasn’t a problem. Strange place for the winning post on the bend … all very interesting. Thanks for the link.
No problem at all – I just thought it would be a good idea to show that there maybe IS a safer water jump alternative. As for the rest of the fences – Christian said you can just about put your hand through them. The course is actually only used once a year at present – I’m not sure if it would take much racing actually!!
I’m not sure exactly how high the water jump is, but as the horses are free to run out of the water, it really doesn’t present any problems. I’ve also discovered that Ferdy Murphy has had runners in this race in the past – wonder if he had any comment of the fences? As for the winning post – gives the race that ‘Palio’ feel, but I know that Dirk (Helmacs jockey) had to apply the brakes rather swiftly at the end of the race!
Darren – AngloGerman
Hi Ten Plus
You’ll find the Kim Bailey comments here
http://www.kimbaileyracing.com/Blog_Jan21.html …..halfway down the page
quote from johnjdonaghue:
How about Bechers or the Chair in Aintree equally as dangerous, I don’t here any anybody asking for these fences to be modified or banned? Would anyone go so far?
It is well known that both Bechers and The Chair have been extensively modified since the 80’s, which has made both obstacles a fairer test.
The point seems to be that water jumps are trappy obstacles which catch horses out unexpectedly, and whilst few incidents occur at them, the incidents which do happen tend to be serious career/life threatening back or leg injuries.
I for one wouldnt mind seeing them phased out. Was this what happened in Ireland, or have they never existed there? There must be some explanation for this?
So guaranteed no more fatalities at the Chair or Beechers then Beeswing. How about the 3rd last at Cheltenham, which seems to catch a number of horses out, and is a trappy obstacle. Granite Jack also came to grief at this fence last year, and how Don’t Push it survived at the festival this year I dont’t know. Should this fence be removed?
JohnJ
JJD,
It was the second last fence at Cheltenham (and specifically on the Old Course), wasn’t it?
gc
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
Therefore, maybe the best idea would be to find a happy medium, and I think it might be an idea to look at the widest water jump in Europe. This is (contrary to popular belief) not at Auteuil, but at the Waregem course in Belgium. Like Auteuil, their water jump is also right in front of that stands, making for spectacular viewing. However, the water jump at Waregem is only a few inches deep, and the idea is that the horses actually land in the water, then with one stride are out again, because there is no ‘lip’ on the end of the water.
Yes, I think that’s the way to go, Darren – retain the element of spectacle, but at the same time negate the risk to competitor, by having a higher fence and a wider water element that can only be splashed through.
Prior to reinstating the water jump at Stratford, I wonder if the racecourse executive looked at practices elsewhere in the jumping world, or indeed whether they could still be minded to change the obstacle?
gc
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
As an experienced hunter East Tycoon would have been used to jumping all types of different obstacle
Ostensibly yes, although in the case of this first-season hunter, for all we know he might only have been out hunting the minimum four or five times over the winter to attain the certificate that permitted his participation in this and other hunters’ chases. Only those closest to the gelding will have known for sure of the extent and variety of tests he would have confronted in the hunting field.
I feel very sorry for the animal and his connections, as there were one or two short hunters’ chases back at his beloved Stratford later in the season with his name written all over them, although I suppose yesterday’s terrible accident does pose the question as to how he might have coped with the newly-reinstated water at the Warwickshire venue.
gc
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
Wasn’t his mistake at the water-jump in the Champion Chase in 2005 what effectively finished Azertyuiop?
Not sure maybe it was his trainers decision to go head to head in Sandown with Pipe to win the Championship using Azertyuiop.
Aye, if either of the two hastened his demise, I think the latter would have the more so.
gc
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
I’m sure quite a high profile horse lost his life at Ascot’s water jump some years ago but the name escapes me.
I think that was The Proclamation.
Bechers has been modified as a result of incidents there – there were lengthy posts on here re this about that idiotic amateur rider who rode his horse too fast at it
That was the lunatic David Pitcher aboard the innocent Brown Trix in the 1989 Grand National.
https://theracingforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72040&highlight=brown+trix
gc
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
Here’s a link to a brochure all about Waregem – if you scroll down it there are details of the jumps.
http://www.drk.be/admin/Module_Drs/uplo … horses.pdf
Some "high" profile horses that met their end at water jumps I think were – Kybo (at Ascot – he’s the one I was trying to remember in previous post), Commandante (my be incorrect about him) and Geos – the latter last year at the only water jump in a point-to-point.
graysonscolumn: I believe you were at Ludlow – please tell me the vet got there very quickly … the sight of that poor horse is haunting me … the spectators must have been horrified and his lad/lass must be devastated – as indeed anybody connected with East Tycoon.
It’s a false impression that pointers and hunter chasers automatically have vast experience jumping a variety of obstacles whilst qualifying – some do and are good genuine hunters as well as racehorses but equally they can just turn up at a meet (and how many they have to attend varies from hunt to hunt) tootle around – they don’t have to leave the ground – to get a certificate.
Paul Nicholls is anti water jumps too – see Kim Bailey’s piece.
Heres an opinion that appears on Kim Baileys website
"Water jumps might be a spectacle for some, but frankly it is the one fence that when a horse gets it wrong and drags his hind legs in the water, it can easily result in far worse injuries that caused by other fence mistakes.
Not only that, but as it is so small, horses seeing one for the first time can be tempted to hurdle them which can easily be catastrophic; ending up with pulled muscles over their back ends being the least of their injuries.
We must not forget it is perhaps the only fence that a horse will not practice over at home. Lets move on from them, they don’t serve a purpose any more.
It beggars belief someone should reproduce the hypocritical posting of Kim Bailey on here on the alleged cruelty of water jumps which is nonsense when the said piece has next to it a picture of cruelty to bulls in Spain together with a "funny" caption.
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