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Darren,
As I said in my earlier post – I believe (at the moment) vaccine passports are unnecessary in Britain. Because our early vaccination programme has put us in a better position than mainland Europe. So I agree Scotland and Wales vaccine passports won’t have worked but in mainland Europe it’s a different scenario.
Yes, it is hard on those who can’t take the vaccine because of medical grounds… and that is precisely the fault of those refusing the vaccination for no reasonable reason. Currently those with “medical grounds” feel (their own choice) they can not go to football matches because the risk is too high. Frightened due to so many who’ve refused the jab for no reasonable reason. ie If it was only the “medical grounds” unvaccinated then yes many of them could go to football without much fear of contracting covid. But sadly some people see it as their (emphasise “their”) civil liberty / right to refuse the vaccine for no real reason… Rather than (what I see it as) a civic duty.
You say there is no science for vaccine passports. As I said earlier, when covid infections reach a certain level there is a choice to be made. This is the “science”…….
…Vaccine Passports could be a lifeline for small businesses. Although the vaccinated can pass on covid and get ill / die, the risk of doing so is reduced enormously compared to the unvaccinated. ie The unvaccinated pose a far greater risk when in enclosed spaces and /or when close to others. Therefore – if covid infections reach a certain level it is still fairly safe to allow vaccinated people in to pubs, clubs etc but is unsafe to allow unvaccinated in… So it is then where countries have a choice…
Either
Close down pubs and clubs etc completely – possibly seeing them go out of business.
OR
Introduce vaccine passports so that only the safe(ish) vaccinated people can frequent pubs, clubs etc. – keeping those businesses going.
End of the “science” part.
It may be hard on the unvaccinated, but personally if I had chosen to refuse the vaccine (or unable to have it on medical grounds) I’d be ok with vaccine passports to keep people’s businesses going.
I have something called “social anxiety” feeling anxious in certain social situations / places. Pubs being one so I avoid them… and have never been to a nightclub in my life. But just because I can not use them does not mean I want to deprive others of the (supposed) “pleasure”. Please don’t feel sorry for me, I enjoy life probably more than most. Are those who’ve chosen not to get vaccinated really so selfish they want people to go out of business?
Covid may well be with us for several years to come which could mean we need further precautions. I don’t see it as forever though – if enough of us are vaccinated.
Value Is EverythingCAS,
You’re clutching at straws mate.
You claim they “over-stated the threat of Covid back in 2020″… And yet the government’s expert claimed a good result would be what? 20,000 deaths. Is now much much worse! So how can they have “overstated the threat”?
You say “vaccines, sold to us this time last year as the escape route but which do not prevent infection or transmission”.
That is a downright anti-vaxer lie. Nobody said vaccines “prevent infection or transmission”, just that it dramatically reduces the risk of both those things. Same as most vaccines
You say “They know the public are getting angry. Witness the riots in several countries. Therefore they have resorted to an old trick. Stigmatise a group as scapegoats so the public turn their anger on them, instead of where it should be. It is as old as the hills”.
Do you really, really believe democracies would basically ruin their own economies just so they had someone to blame? If believing this sh!t you’ve been reading too many conspiracy theory sites again.
You say “It is not going to end until governments stop pretending they know what they are doing and just treat it as an endemic virus. But that is not going to happen because it would involve politicians and doctors admitting they got something wrong. The two groups of people least likely to do so” .
Truth is governments have never said they know everything about the virus; governments / scientists and doctors are learning as things progress and always said new variants can change what’s needed. They’ve also admitted they won’t / haven’t got everything right….
Don’t you think it might just be the anti-vaxers that are least likely to admit they’re wrong?
Value Is EverythingWhich experts, Ginger? Professor Ferguson? Someone who said millions would die from bird flu when about 400 did. Who said 100,000 people would die in Sweden unless it locked down. It didn’t and their death toll was 5,000, largely because it failed to protect care homes (just like the UK).
The Dutch government has introduced another partial lockdown despite its own research showing the 2020 lockdown did more harm than good by a factor of 9 to 1. Insanity.
I do not want to believe that governments are ruining their societies and economies but they are doing a very good impression of it.
I would not be so trusting. Back in 2020, the Sage Committee openly stated its policy was to frighten the public with hard hitting emotional messaging. Look it up if you do not believe me.
Have you not considered the consequences of the last 20 months, aside from the economic damage you allude to? Have you considered how many excess deaths in the home there have been in the last year? It is something like 70,000. Many because people could not see doctors or believed the messaging about not burdening the NHS and did not seek the help they needed.
Have you thought of all the cancer diagnoses that have been delayed? Do you not think the burden the NHS is under might be connected to the escalating waiting list caused by the service shutting down to everything except Covid?
Then there is the mental damage. I know people who were so terrified by the relentless scaremongering that they have not left the house for the last 20 months other than to get their vaccine. They are wrecked people, shells of what they were and will never recover.
We are also facing an epidemic of childhood obesity. Whoever would have thought that closing schools, closing playgrounds and keeping children indoors would cause that to happen? Think of all the health problems connected with obesity. That will do the NHS a lot of good.
That is before we mention the damage done to children’s mental health and their education. We are going to pay a price for exams being cancelled for two years.
This is only scratching the surface of the damage done. We should have stuck to our detailed pandemic plan which was already in place. Protect the elderly and vulnerable and allow the working population and children to carry on as normal as possible. Many people did, with no ability to work from home.
The only good thing is Johnson held his nerve over Freedom Day, despite all the usual suspects saying it was a mistake. That allowed infections to circulate in the summer and put us in a better place as winter approached. Unlike Europe, which is facing a grim winter. I am reasonably optimistic we will avoid that fate and if I had to bet on it, I think vaccine passports and mandatory vaccination are unlikely here.
I still maintain we just have to learn to live with this virus. If you do not believe in zero Covid, that implies you are prepared to accept there will be some infections, hospital cases and deaths. I think it is a fair question to ask: what does Covid under control look like to allow us to go back to normal? Because Europe cannot keep locking down every winter.
You seem to be under the impression it was a choice between covid measures on the one hand… Or cancer, obesity, mental problems and all other treatments on the other. It was not.
Are you forgetting how – even with the measures you criticise – doctors and nurses had to be moved to treat covid and how covid cases filled hospitals?… Can you not see that if it wasn’t for these measures the NHS / hospitals would’ve been in an even worse (much worse!) situation than it was? ie Without the covid measures there would’ve been FAR LESS or NO room in the NHS to treat the things you mention. More GPs and Hospital doctors and nurses ill or dead so more doctor’s surgeries and Hospitals can’t treat the patients you’re so concerned about… Suffering of patients would’ve been far greater without (at least most of) the measures brought in.
Value Is EverythingNot true Ginger. Plenty of studies have been completed which have shown lockdowns delivered no health benefits and did much more harm. There was a reason they were not part of ANY country’s plans for dealing with a pandemic or recommended by the WHO.
Oh not this bullsh!t again. You’re reading too many President Trump tweets, CAS.
The W H O are rightly AGAINST long term lockdowns as a primary defence of covid. However, the W H O are FOR countries USING lockdowns for relieving pressure on health services when infections are at their worst. W H O makes plain there are plenty of health benefits to lockdowns (done at the correct time) which can outweigh the harm.
ie Where – like I said – without a lockdown there would effectively be no health service to use.
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 2553
Waste of human life- but would have my full tank bank on Ginge having the last word, no matter how wrong he is
Trying to close the thread down because you know you’ve lost the argument, Tank?
tbh Think a Tank absence of posts means you already know you were wrong and have now secretly been jabbed. Of course you won’t admit it.
Value Is EverythingGinger
There is no science for vaccine passports
On 12th of June in UK there was a public administration report by the affairs committee.
The government failed to supply the scientific evidence for them. I say there no scientific evidence because the government failed to supply when they were asked for it.Also look at other parts of Europe be Germany had the covid pass for months what happen get there highest cases since it started
Belgium and Austria and Holland the same thing to these countries in Europe had the covid pass in play for months done nothing but cause problems for people running a business
Very clear no science for vaccine passports and they are useless
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Nice try, Ginge, but my absence of posts just shows how bored I am of it. Nobody ever changes their opinion. I do think that you’re a thoroughly decent human being in general, though.
I have been persuaded to change my mind on several different things, Tank.
eg I was all for remaining in the EU. Even “campaigned” for it on here and then (immediately after the referendum) stupidly signed a petition for another one! Now I’m all for Brexit.
You’ve had the jabb, admit it.
Value Is EverythingI’d have thought it was bloody obvious vaccine passports were brought in to help stop small businesses from going bust, Darren.
Instead of just repeating the mantra of “no science for vaccine passports”, without dealing with anything I’ve said… Please explain to me why you think completely shutting (locking) businesses down is both more economical for those businesses themselves and for the country… than still being allowed to trade with 80% of their customers under vaccine passports?
Or to put it another way:
No trade or 80% trade – which of those two do you think is more likely to keep a business from going broke?
Value Is EverythingI am ignoring this thread
For the record the entire topic is what makes the grass grow green in Texas
😁😁
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Vaccine Passports are clearly not required- Jabbed and unjabbed can catch covid and pass covid on. So, no reason why any business should not allow all in. It’s as simple as that, but you, and many others, can’t see that, Ginge.
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I’m trying to avoid all the covid bollox as well, Ricky- not easy though when so many can’t see that the vaxx is not fit for purpose
Totally agree on all counts
Consider this
Most governments saw covid as a massive opportunity to introduce digital passports and make life less free by imposing authoritarian state control
Its early days. Ut my guesx is they will utterlyfail
It is not now and never was about coronavirus
Its about state control and shadowing the chinese model as much as they can
Moronic evil bastards👎👎👎👎
I think we’re fortunate to have such learned people like Tank and Ricky on here Ginger. Who needs experts. Just read that Europe will hit 2.2 million deaths before spring thanks to similar thinking there.
The best things in life are free.
But you can give them to the birds and bees.
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