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Hiya,
Maybe the Scottish fellows on this forum can confirm this for me? As far as I can gather the SNP has nailed its colours to the mast as being both pro-European and pro-immigration. Should the day ever come that Birmingham is appended to Scotland, I think they’d give this ‘ere Lib Demmer a serious voting dilemma…
Regarding immigration, I think the SNP’s Nicola Pollock made the point that more immigration is required to arrest the decline in population particularly biting in Scotland. This has long since been the argument for inviting more people into Germany and one which I have supported over here for some time now.
We DO need to make up the shortfall which the sustained refusal of Brits to make babies (myself included) at the same rate as a decade ago is making ever more apparent. What we DON’T need, however, is them all being patriated in the already stupidly crowded Southeast – there are other areas of the British Isles (as well as the aforementioned Scotland) where they would be better directed to. It can only be hoped that a better geographic spread of non-British people across the UK will also, over time, engender a better mutual understanding and tolerance of each other across the board.
Not too much to hope for, I think.
Jeremy<br>(graysonscolumn)
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
Quote: from Meshaheer on 9:14 pm on April 15, 2005[br]What I would like is a political party which would eradicate all forms of political correctness from society altogether.<br>
<br>Explain.<br>
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
My result on that poll thing;
<br>LibDem +105<br>Green +91<br>Labour +21<br>Evil UKIP -37<br>Evil Tories -52
<br>Well thank Quixall / Peel / Guesty / Goethe / Kafka [insert ersatz God of choice] for that.
Jeremy<br>(graysonscolumn)
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
Hi Jeremy
The SNP have been long time fans of the EC.
I don’t see a dedicated immigration policy on the policy list on their website (http://www.snp.org/policies/), which IMO is a good thing.
However, part of their economic plan mentions:
"launching a proactive immigration policy to welcome new Scots and encourage people who have left Scotland to come back."
I like the idea of "new scots".
I see little long term value in the current british situation where we have all these people coming over from Eastern Europe (the new EC countries) who only plan to stay for 6 or 12 months.
From what I’ve seen, many of them just want to save as much money as possible which means that they:
(1) work menial jobs (often in the black economy)<br>(2) spend as little money here as possible<br>(3) live either many to a room or in tiny box rooms <br>(4) make no effort to integrate.
Then they take the money they’ve saved and go back to their own countries.
Personally, I’d far rather have people come here who want to make a life here. They’d be motivated to integrate and would contribute far more to our society.<br> <br>Anyway, back to the SNP, they also opposed the war and, unlike the Lib Dems, are committed to impeaching Blair.
Steve
Talking of the SNP, I got a leaflet from them through my door today.
It starts: "No weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq. Bush and Blair lied to us to take us into an illegal war".
Not much sitting on the fence there.
As I’m voting tactically, I need to find some opinion polls.
Does anyone know of a website that’s got opinion polls seat by seat?
Cheers
Steve
The comments on here regarding immigration are a bit contrary to what I see with my eagle eyes everyday of my life.
Where I live in Scotland (Ayrshire) these are the things I’ve noticed;
1. The cheapest house you can buy is around £90K.<br>2. There are loads of houses being built all over the place.<br>3. Despite the supposed population decline, all of these new houses have people living in them .. !!
Where are all of these new people going to live ?
Or are we copying the US of A, where we just let loads of people in who can’t do anything and stick them in slums and pretend you’ve got their interests at heart. Anyway, a big hello to all of the new people ..
Some sort of explanation would be appreciated because I’m so confused.
I’ll help you with your confusion Dave.
The shortage of houses is primarily due to the reduction in the average number of people living in each home.
As for the killing of the Kurdish man, is someone being stabbed in Glasgow really news?
The asylum system is a shambles.
Last time I looked, Turkey is a country we allow people to claim asylum from.
Turkey: a country that’s in Nato, who are about to start negotiations to join the EU (with the backing of the Americans) and are described by the FCO website as "a major trading partner of the UK" and where the UK is the 5th largest foreign investor.
Yet, at the same time, we believe that they treat their own people so shabbily that those people have to be offered a safe haven.
Is it only me or is there a dichotomy here?
With incongruities like this, it’s hardly suprising that the media have succeeded in portraying asylum seekers as being primarly a bunch of chancers who don’t meet the requirements of planned immigration but who’ve gained the right to stay in this country by playng an inept system.
Steve
Well, that doesn’t really un-confuse me at all Steve, because working along that line of thinking, the more expensive housing areas would have a less dense population. When in reality, the reverse is true. The supposition just doesn’t tie in with reality Steve.
There are several other lies of this nature pedalled about, these are some of my favourites;
Lie One<br>Immigrants have more children than the indigenous population and we need their kids to pay for our pensions. This has evolved from the ‘we need immigrants to pay for our pensions lie’ that was in fashion a couple of years ago. This lie evolved because, believe it or not, immigrants also grow old and will be entitled to a state pension, therefore contributing to the problem rather than being our Saviour.<br>Answer to Lie One<br>The truth of the matter is that there are plenty of immigrants here already and if they were going to out-breed the people who were already here, it would have happened years ago. What really happens is that once people are here and they assimilate into the population they become like us and would rather have a new hi-fi than start a family. Each to their own!
Lie Two<br>Immigrants will do all of the crap jobs for nothing, or do the work that we won’t do and keep the place going. <br>Answer to Lie Two<br>Anyone working for the minimum wage with a family is entitled to money from the Social to make their wages up to a guaranteed weekly income, including help with, council tax, rent and income. Perhaps these so-called jobs aren’t jobs at all. If a job needs done but you don’t want to pay people to do it then perhaps some sort of serfdom or a reintroduction of slavery is more appropriate. At least then the person getting the work done for them is responsible for the serf/slave’s well being and won’t be allowed to let them rely on State hand outs forever.
Lie Three<br>Immigrants will halt the declining population in Scotland.<br>Answer to Lie Three<br>If the population is declining, which I personally doubt, it is because people can’t find work here and move down south the get a job. Why would anyone imagine that an immigrant would be able to find work and make a viable go of life when the people who are already here cannot?
The truth about immigration is that it is all about economic growth and artificially maintaining an under-class in society. Our government has no choice about the number of people who enter the UK because the immigration quotas are set by the European Union. Immigration will create political instability in this country, 1,000,000 people voted for the BNP in the last Euro elections compared with their usual 100,000. In France, Holland, Austria and parts of Germany far right wing groups attract around 15 –25% of the popular vote and hold significant sway over government policy, not a direction I would like to see this country move towards.
Current Immigration Policy and the European Union Idea will all end in tears. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind about anything, but so long as you have the facts then you can make an informed decision.
BTW, did you hear that Bliar was looking for an excuse to invade Iraq 8 months before it actually happened ? We’ll be talking about the EU and Immigration in the same way we talk about the Iraq business in years to come and before there’s any lasting damage done to the country. As with all lies, this does not stand up to scrutiny or debate.
Well, that’s my opinion anyway.
Dave
the more expensive housing areas would have a less dense population. When in reality, the reverse is true
I’m not sure exactly what you mean.
My belief is that, compared to 40 years ago, we’ve got a lot more people living alone in small(ish) flats.
So a tenement that would have had lots of familes – many with kids – now has a lot of single people or couples but not many kids.
People are leaving home at a younger age, the couple with 3 kids aged 20-25 now live alone in a 4 bedroom house and the kids maybe live in flats.
40 years ago, those kids were more likely to have still lived with their parents.
If the population is declining, which I personally doubt
According to http://www.esrc.ac.uk/ESRCContent/news/april05-1.asp, 51,270 births were registered in Scotland in 2002.
Assuming a population of 5m and a life expectancy of 75, we’d expect 66,667 deaths per year.
So, we would guess that the population is falling by around 15,000 plus or minus net emmigration.
According to the same website,
"Outward migration is not a factor in declining population. About 70,000 people migrate to Scotland each year and approximately the same number of people leave Scotland each year."
So, that would mean that the 15,000 decline would be about right.
So, that answers "lie 3".
I also have my doubts about your analysis of "lie 1".
Firsly, if the average age of the immigrants is lower than the average age of the population, then I’d expect them to be more likely to have kids.
Secondly, while many of the immigrants that come here are no more likely to have kids than the existing population, a number of them come from cultures where:
(1) people tend to have far more kids than we do <br>or <br>(2) where women are frowned upon for working.
Both of which would be expected to be factors that would be likely to contribute to higher birth rates.
However, whether they have more kids than the general population, I don’t know.
Without proper stats, my opinion is just a guess.
However, if we bring in a load of people from the Czech Republic and Estonia, I doubt it’s going to do much to halt the long term decline in population.
As for "lie 2", I know a lot of Eastern Europeans here and a couple of them are doing really crappy dead-end jobs for the NHS for the sort of money I can’t imagine any of us would be willing to do similar work for.
Neither of them are getting any extra money from the government (though neither have families).
There are plenty of these people and I bet a big chunk of them will go back to their own countries long before they see a penny of what they’ve paid in NI contributions and never collect a state pension from the UK.
However, again this is just speculation. we won’t know for a few decades.
However, if the idea of immigrants working crap jobs for sweeties is just a lie, how come there are so many low-paid immigrants working crappy jobs in the NHS?
Steve
The general housing shortage .. if as you say there are less people staying in houses and creating demand, logically speaking if an area is more expensive, like London, then it will be less densely populated. Because less people will be staying in the same number of houses as they were say 20 years ago. I think that’s what you meant !?
England is full of Jocks .. outward migration having no effect .. that’s just a laugh. How many Scots live in England? Around 750,000 not including everywhere else in the world.
I’d be interested to hear what you think about the rise of the BNP?
Personally I have no problem with Eastern Europeans I’ve visited some of these countries with work. What I do have a problem with is exploitation and supression of earnings by big companies and governments to their own benefit.
I have seen some people work for nothing, when I was staying in Germany. I can’t go into details in public but we had to buy them food. If you PM me your e-mail address I’ll tell you what happened and how it came about. Very unpleasant indeed involving, an Anglo-French company, Indonesian Engineers and a large manufacturing conglomerate.
Very interesting this.<br>On a slightly different note, if you dont mind. Just watching the Ask Tony Blair program, talking about the rich/poor issue.<br>Does TRF belive it is the job of Polititians to narrow the difference between rich and poor?<br>Should the Rich be penalised for being rich? should the poor be given additional help for being poor? Or neither?
DJ
I wasn’t thinking about London, mainly because it’s not, technically, in Scotland.
My understanding is that London has an expanding population and, with the population increasing faster than the housing supply, the prices have been driven up.
Also, it’s generally a more expensive place (salaries are higher), so you’d expect housing to be more expensive also.
However, I never spend time in London, so I’m just speculating.
What I was thinking off was somewhere like Edinburgh who’s population has been fairly constant over the years but where the decrease in the average number of people per home has resulted in a greater demand for housing and, as a result, houses are being built on any available space.
.. outward migration having no effect .. that’s just a laugh. How many Scots live in England? Around 750,000 not including everywhere else in the world.
How many English live up here? And how many French, Polish, Aussies etc etc
The survey I quoted showed a zero net migration.
A survey (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=765) shows a net migration for Scotland (within the UK only) for 2001.
So, why do you doubt that this is the case? Got any numbers to back your doubts up?
I’d be interested to hear what you think about the rise of the BNP?
Are you suggesting parallels between the BNP & the SNP?
I believe that we’re headed towards greater institutionalised xenophobia.
I think that this is unavoidable.
However, the BNP won’t be at the forefront of it as they’ve turned up too soon.
So, my thoughts of them is that they’re an irrelevance.
As for Eastern Europeans, I’ve no problem with them either.
What I don’t like is the way that our country is exploiting the differences in the cost of living between here and there to underpay them.
We’re seeing skilled people leaving their own economy where they can contribute a lot to come here and work as cleaners or porters.
This can’t be good for these Eastern countries.
I also wonder what attitude these people have towards Britain and the British when they return to their own countries.
While they’ve gotten what they came for (money), they know they’ve been underpaid and treated like second class citizens.
I think it cheapens us all. I don’t like the idea of the UK having this sub-class of migrant workers with few rights who are ghettoised.
But, as long as we have these Eastern Europeans coming here just to make a few quid to take back home, I think that this is inevitable.
The government love it, they can save a bundle on the NHS.
But is it really worth it?
Personally, as I said before, I’d rather we attracted people to this country who want to stay, preferably skilled workers, and who will integrate into our society.
Steve
Steve,<br>I think we basically agree about most things regarding exploitation of migrants. I don’t believe in any statistics at all, unless I have full access to the original data, as you probably know they can mean anything that you want them to mean, or nothing at all. I would rather rely in what I see and my own experience of life to make my decisions and form my opinions. I could go on here about immigration and the way that it’s used to exploit people but I won’t, there’s no point. We’ve all got our own ideas and views and that’s the way it should be, not having an opinion is a sin.
Immigration without sorting out the housing problem will be a disaster for all of us eventually. If the government want a low wage economy they will have to provide affordable housing or future generations will be like rats in a barrel. Maybe that’s the idea?
Alchemist,<br>Taxing the rich to help the poor .. assuming you mean through Income Tax, I think is a bad idea. It is more complicated than just giving people money. I think the best thing a government can do to help poor people is to continually increase the minimum wage a few percent about the rate of inflation every year. Abolish the European Working Time Directive (WTD) and reduce the top level band of corporation tax to keep industry competitive. State Benefits are a big disincentive for people who are already working, for them to go out and provide for themselves and their families without help from the state, is too bigger gap to bridge, at the minute. The system should let people help themselves to life and not keep them in an eternal financial twilight zone. <br>
Just got back from being a poll clerk at one of the stations in Bromsgove.<br>We reckoned that, including the postal vote, there had been approximately a mid sixties percent turnout.<br>Keith
So everyone won the election;
Labour got the most seats.
Tories made the most gains.
Liberals got the most seats they’ve had since 1928.
The Welsh rejected a politically correct appointee and insisted on having the best person.
I reckon the Welsh won it .. how about you ??
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