- This topic has 35 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 7 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
If other courses follow the same route as Bangor and Chester it will be a bad day for the horse racing industry. The tote may not be to everybody’s liking but if you are like me and like to have a placepot when attending a race meeting, then this news is terrible. All it will do is stop people betting at the track and using their telephone accounts.
It will be very interesting to see how they work there dividends out. If it’s true that it’s just the SP with a 10% reduction then this is criminal.
Betfred got, for 7 years from their acquisition date, the Tote’s exclusive right "to carry on pool betting business in any form on a recognised horse race" (ie GB races held under Rules of Racing).
Racecourses have never been forced to admit the Tote to operate on course though, and in November 2011 it was reported in The Guardian:
=====================================
The future for Tote pool betting on British tracks remains unclear as commercial negotiations continue to stutter between the biggest courses and the Tote’s new owners, Betfred.Chester and sister racecourse Bangor have split from the other 28 tracks that come under the umbrella of Racecourse Media Group and withdrawn from discussions with Betfred.
Racegoers at Chester and Bangor will, from next April, have no access to an on-course pool betting operation. Instead, Data Tote will make a first venture into British racing by offering a fixed-odds starting price-based betting service to racegoers.
Under its previous management, the Tote paid no Levy on any bets placed on-course through the pools, but did pay commission to racecourses on bets taken and agreed to reinvest further profits back into the sport through sponsorship.
However, that deal expires with the RMG tracks next March and the revised proposals, although unclear, are said to be less attractive.
======================================http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 … te-betting
So although Data Tote run pool betting at UK and Irish dog tracks, and elsewhere:
http://www.datatote.co.uk/index.php/customers
they cannot do so, and I would expect very carefully are not doing so, on GB horse racing – at least for that seven years.
The explanatory notes to Section 94 Gambling Act 2005 (Horse-race pool betting operating licence) make clear that that section is to endure only for so long as " only one licence for horserace pool betting has effect in Great Britain……
".. The Secretary of State has the power to repeal this section if circumstances dictate that it is no longer needed i.e. if there are no longer exclusive arrangements for horserace pool betting in Great Britain. In such circumstances, the pool betting operating licence [Section 93] would become the only kind of licence relevant to pool betting in Great Britain, and would also cover horserace pool betting."
As a business model, Horse Racing in the UK has the appearance of something held together by sticky backed plastic. Every element within its make-up appears to be pulling in its own direction.
I think this certainly could be good for individual courses and the easier they make it for "day trippers" to have a bet the better it will be. I have quite often taken people racing and had my day spoilt slightly by having to lead them by the nose when I wanted to do my own homework!
I may be wrong but didn’t some dog tracks run their own versions of the Tote years ago?
Incidentally I wanted to read the full article on the RP site, which I rarely visit nowadays, and apparently I have to be in the Members Club to even read the news now!
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains
I've walked and I crawled on six crooked highways….
I may be wrong but didn’t some dog tracks run their own versions of the Tote years ago?
they still do, eg
http://www.romfordgreyhoundstadium.co.u … tingGuide/
and those dog track totes seem to run on the same Data Tote equipment as Bangor.
plus Data Tote’s sister company E-tote runs the 24dogs.com website.
so Bangor and Chester are in with a very established operator.
It’s clear what the long-term goal is for those courses signing up with datatote, and of course they may get an opportunity to offer their core products sooner than expected as wit says. I had a phone call from one of the players in this story who was keen to have their side put across – apparently Richard Thomas was very keen to continue to offer bets via tote direct (as most high street firms do), but with datatote running on-course operations as now, but couldn’t strike a deal with Fred Done, who wanted an all-or-nothing deal (Fred may argue differently, of course) which gives some background. I’ve no issue with an in-house system plus tote betting, as punters can clearly shun the option they don’t like.
Bets are settled as "SP -10%", but he was quick to point out that an "SP – 5%" option is also there, the logic being that punters unwilling to search for value in the ring should be happy to pay a premium on their betting. I disagree with this in principle, but of course if its true that most recreational bettors on course won’t get off their backsides, then the decision will be justified. The worrying thing is that as the new-look tote try to be more competitive on margins (correct decision imo) then racecourses will see the possibility of less revenue from on-course tote customers, and look for similar solutions. My view is that a streamlined tote will see a heavy increase in business which can only be a good thing, despite a lower rate of commission, but my experience of betting companies is that they tend to be margin-obsessed. We’ll see how this plays out.
After Fred’s seven year exclusivity is over what then? Who owns the exclusivity once Fred relinquishes it? Can HMG auction off another seven years? Or is their hold over and it becomes a free for all with the Gambling Commission giving out multiple horseracing pool licenses to anyone passing muster. Under that scenario someone will do the 5% takeout thing and watchout then.
free-for-all after 7 years:
Section 8(4) of the Horserace Betting and Olympic Lottery Act 2004:
The Secretary of State…. may not require the issue of the exclusive licence more than once.
Section 8(11):
The exclusive licence may not be..renewed
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/25/section/8
DCMS statement on the sale:
Much obliged Wit.
Isn’t this the death knell for bookmaking.
Someone could even run a not for profit online pool, just to get ‘virtual footfall’ for advertising or their store. Then co-mingling of all zero takeout not for profit pools…
Then HMG wont be happy with getting 15% of nothing.
So HMG abolishes profits based tax and reintroduces taxation of betting turnover.
consider the following from HMRC:
=================================
What is General Betting Duty?
General Betting Duty is a duty charged on the ‘net stake receipts’ (basically the gross profits from bookmaking) from bets made with:
■UK-based bookmaker
■totalisator operator in the UK
■bet broker
■betting exchange
■pools promoter on horse or dog racingWhat are the rates of duty?
These are:
■15 per cent for fixed odds bets and totalisator bets
■3 per cent for financial spread bets
■10 per cent for all other spread betsAre on-course bets liable to duty?
No, providing the following conditions apply. These are bets taken:
■where the person making the bets and the bookmaker or totalisator operator accepting the bets are both present at a meeting
■from a bookmaker who is not at the meeting, but who makes hedged bets with a bookmaker who is present at the meeting
All other bets are off-course bets liable to general Betting Duty.
=================================
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPort … ment#P1_35
this suggests that a model like the Data Tote operation at Bangor already does not need to pay betting duty – can anyone confirm ?
I see last Thursdays Tote Win pool at Chester totalled just £61,000. Equivalent for the same day in 2011 was £510,000. Assuming a large portion of the balance was bet oncourse, this looks like a huge money-spinner for Chester. How long before other racecourses with big social crowds cotton on?
Worrying development for the levy.
I see last Thursdays Tote Win pool at Chester totalled just £61,000. Equivalent for the same day in 2011 was £510,000. Assuming a large portion of the balance was bet oncourse, this looks like a huge money-spinner for Chester. How long before other racecourses with big social crowds cotton on?
Worrying development for the levy.
The levy is dead. This approach is the future.
Wouldn’t say its dead yet, and perhaps The Horsemen will be able to recycle some of Chester’s new income into prizmoney via the tariff.
Anyway aren’t Chester legally obliged to pay a percentage of their profit from this venture back to the levy? They are acting as a bookmaker after all.
Any racecourse considering innovative moves aimed at increasing profits needs to be aware that The Horsemen will be sitting quietly, gazing down, letting them get through all the early issues, overcoming problems, throwing resources at it and then, should it be successful, THG will swoop looking for a bounty from it.
Old post but just been to Bangor yesterday. Bangor Bet is a joke. Rubbish terms and rubbish odds. Even the normally tight bookies will take £1.00 off you. Bangor Bet minimum is £2.00 and they slice about 10% off the normal odds. Place your bets online or with your local bookie before you leave home, or just use the bookies ‘stood on their orange boxes’ when you get there. Shame on you B on D.
Old post but just been to Bangor yesterday. Bangor Bet is a joke. Rubbish terms and rubbish odds. Even the normally tight bookies will take £1.00 off you. Bangor Bet minimum is £2.00 and they slice about 10% off the normal odds. Place your bets online or with your local bookie before you leave home, or just use the bookies ‘stood on their orange boxes’ when you get there. Shame on you B on D.
Even Dick Turpin wore a mask – How pathetic is SP minus 10%?
Whilst agreeing with PaulO’s analysis of Chester racecourse, its prices and the type of crowd it attracts, the race company (and Richard Thomas in particular) are one hell of a go-getting team.
Take this news:-CHESTER Race Company has agreed a five-year contract with Cheshire West and Chester Council (CWaC) to manage Chester Town Hall.
Horseradish – the race company’s outside catering arm – will manage the historic building, handle event bookings and provide catering and hospitality.
CWaC hopes the move will result in the 19th century building being used more regularly to host civic, arts, cultural and social events and weddings.
Horseradish already manages matchday and non-matchday catering and events at Chester Football Club and provides hospitality at the Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod.That’s a RACE Company doing that FFS! Will profits from these ventures be ploughed back in prize-money? Possibly not, shareholders though will be rubbing their hands with glee.
Anyway, regarding Bangor/Chester/Ripon in-house totes, no one is forced to bet with them or told that the returns will be something that they’re not; no one is being deceived. If people can’t be mnithered to seek out the best value and are happy to settle for what’s most convenient, then that’s their problem. When was the last time any one criticising these courses for this venture ever told a punter in the ring not to take a particular board price ‘cos there were better odds at another bookies pitch some yards away? Never I’d guess. Hypocrisy then if you somehow believe the in-house totes need some sort of strong-arm legislation to make them pay comparative odds.
Caveat Emptor
Next we’ll have people saying racecourses should offer free Gamblers Anonymous counselling to on-course punters!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.