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As per the heading of this thread if you change one bit of the triple crown than it is as good as dead as we know it, nothing particularly wrong with that.
It should not however be changed to make whatever the triple crown was to become any easier. How long had it been before Nijinsky won the final leg that a horse had completed the crown ?
In the fair dinkum department unless the St Leger is changed to either an open age race or changed in distance or done away with altogether ( and i doubt that would happen), than the triple crown will always be the Guineas – The Derby and and the Leger no matter what others may want as the final leg.
If for example the final leg was to be the King George as somebody i think suggested, the triple crown as we know it will still for historical purposes end with the Leger.
IMO the Leger should have a furlong cut off it. 1m 5f 132 yards. I think that’d make it quite a bit more attractive.
I would have to totally disagree with John Oxx when he thinks the Triple Crown will be won in the next 10 years. I can never see it being won again, anyone who ran in it after winning the Guineas & Derby would have to be mad imo.
I’ve little doubt if Nijinsky was running these days he wouldn’t take up the option of The Leger.
The Leger is a good race for horses beaten in The Derby, in other Group 1’s and other stamina laden beasts.
I would have to question the assertion in an earlier post that the general public loves a triple crown and that to capture new fans racing will have to change its triple crown. Where is the evidence for this?We should bear in mind that, before Sea The Stars, only one horse since Nijinsky has won the first two legs so it’s not like potential triple crown winners are ducking it every year.
The reason Sea the Stars will not contest the St Leger is that he isn’t truly bred to stay; he would be beaten and that might affect his stud value. It seems pointless to enter a horse that is not suited to the distance.
It is ridiculous that breeders shun winners of the St Leger. Though as the race has lost its status many poor horses, that were only stayers have prevailed.
It will be interesting to see if breeders shun the services of Conduit, who has also won a Breeders Cup & will probably go onto great things this summer, purely for the fact he won a St Leger. Quite a few recent Derby winners would have won a St Leger if they had competed, they were bred to stay; the whole fashion thing is ridiculous.
I hope that owners will attempt the Triple Crown in the future, with the right horses. Our racing programme is much more varied & interesting than that of the USA. We need to respect this and use it not make racing the whole world over uniform & dull.
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Nashwan did go a bridge too far when beaten on soft ground in the Arc but he was already a legend having won the first 2 classic took the Eclipse and the King George
Nashwan did not run in the Arc. He was beaten in the 3yo Longchamp prep race, the Prix Niel.
Breeding is fashion. John Oxx was pointing out that the fashion of the leading owner-breeeders in Europe is once again turning back towards staying animals. That is a fact.
Doing things the American way is entirely inappropriate, as the shape of their season (with all the triple crown prep races taking part from February onwards!) would not suit our climate. Dirt racing saps stamina, so that the Belmont is easily the equivalent of the St. Leger in staying terms.
So unless the BHA are contemplating putting the whole thing on dirt, they should simply leave things as they are.
I’m not really sure of my facts, and don’t really give a toss anyway, but isn’t the problem with the Leger (and therefore a Triple Crown attempt) it’s timing in the Calendar?
From memory, isn’t the race shceduled close to both the Irish Champion Stakes and the Arc, and both are probably preferable targets for a top-class 3yo?
Maybe if the Leger was moved to mid-August or something, it might be more likely to attract any Triple Crown candidates? Or would that result in a clash with the Eclipse or something?
It’s all boll*cks anyway.
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It’s all boll*cks anyway.
Maybe so, for anyone without a sense of history, a feeling for sporting drama, or thought for the continued strengthening of the breed! Though your suggestion of an August Leger isn’t perhaps such a bad idea. The renaissance of the Irish Champion Stakes has certainly affected the quality of the Leger fields over the last decade.
It’s all boll*cks anyway.
Maybe so, for anyone without a sense of history, a feeling for sporting drama, or thought for the continued strengthening of the breed!
If I need my sense of history checked, I’ll read about Arkle versus Mill House, or revert to my catalogue of Chasers and Hurdlers.
I get more feeling of sporting drama from the Pinkiehill Paperboys Curling final, than I do from the Derby – singluarly the most over-hyped horse-race on the planet. Hard to believe it was being referred to as the "World’s Greatest Race" with straight faces at the weekend.
I’m quite happy for the breed to strengthen, so long as it means an emphasis on worthwhile factors such as stamina, agility, courage and career longevity.
…….. the Derby – singluarly the most over-hyped horse-race on the planet.
Have to disagree with you there – the most overhyped race must be the Breeders Cup Classic – part of "the World Championship"
In terms of hyperbole Epsom are League Two compared with the Breeders Cup which is Premiership.
Indeed the one area where I concede the Breeders Cup really is World Class is hype.
Why not have the 3rd leg of the Triple Crown as the Eclipse at Sandown or the International at York?
Then I believe you would get a lot more interest as you would have a 3yr old who had won group 1 races at 8f, 12f & 10f.
Agree woth Imperial Call. Why have a triple crown no one will go for? I intimated as much in another thread but surely a race like the International should be included rather than the Leger?
In answer to the question posed on the thread…the answer, unfortunately, is "YES".
The Eclipse & International are open to older horses.
In the greater scheme of things does a Triple Crown really matter, at the end of the day people will only run in a race if it suits them, what possible difference would it make to running in The International if it was part of a new "Triple Crown"?Why not have the 3rd leg of the Triple Crown as the Eclipse at Sandown or the International at York?
Then I believe you would get a lot more interest as you would have a 3yr old who had won group 1 races at 8f, 12f & 10f.
The triple crown is about the classics and 3 yos, both the races you suggest are open to older horses so it defeats the objective.
You don’t expect a dual Guineas and Derby or Oaks winner to come along very often let alone a triple crown winner and the last one was in 1985. It has lost much of its appeal with owners looking at stud fees for 10f horses and the close proximity of the Irish Champion Stakes doesn’t help either. To an extent Nijinsky’s failure to win the Arc was blamed on him running in the Leger and has deterred others from following a similar campaign for a 3yo entered in the Arc. It is however not that convincing an excuse as he suffered an attack of ringworm prior to the Leger which is more likely to be the cause of him not being the horse he was in the summer though he was still able to win the Leger and was only narrowly beaten in the Arc.
Some have suggested changing the Leger to 10f but for me the triple crown is the ultimate test of a 3yo’s ability and they should leave it alone. I do hope STS’s owner takes the chance to see his horse enter the record books by running him in the Leger and on route if I owned him he would run in the Eclipse and the International.
While it remains to be seen whether Sea The Stars goes for the St. Leger (in my mind, I would consider it a 20/1 shot), many are saying the traditional Triple Crown still represents the ultimate test of a 3yo.
I still think that, for me, the problem is the timing of the race. With international 3yo+ races now vying for attention, the Leger is simply not deemed worth winning versus races like the Irish Champion or preps for the Arc.
Does anyone know if 1967 Guineas-Derby winner Royal Palace ran in the Leger that year (horse he beat at Epsom, Ribocco, won) – if not, why not? Injured, or bypassed? If so, where did he finish?
People complain about how little Flat horses are raced. Look at the King George and it’s paltry turn out of 3yos now – in fact since Alamshar’s win in 2003, in think only Eswarah and Tycoon are the only 3yos to even contest and both finished well down. Many take a summer break. If anything, the KG is a 4yo+ race now.
Someone asked whether there was any proof the public here would be interested in a US-style Triple Crown. It’s debatable I guess, but I think so. You only have to look at the huge increases in Belmont Stakes attendances (and esp. for horses the public love like Smarty Jones) to see the effect a Triple Crown attempt has on the racing public.
I’d have the Dante as the middle leg. The date fits, 10f fits, York is a top racecourse, and it leaves the biggest race, the Derby, as the climax, something that I think would be incredible if a horse came into it after winning the 2000 Guineas and Dante. I’d love it at least. And perhaps it would get racing more publicity.
I see the Triple Crown as something racing could use to revive itself – not confusing things like the proposed Sovereign series with its permutations. 3 races, in succession, 8 to 10 to 12 furlongs, culminating with the most famous race. Right now, it just gathers dust on the proverbial shelf, bereft of any interest to the tiny few that can even get close.
I doubt any series of races will capture the imagination of racegoers if it made winning it easy and is won every other year ?
The aura of such races is the difficulty of it all, the rarity.
No matter what manufactured triple crown is put up for contest it will never replace the Guineas – Derby – Leger, at least not in our life time, it would take numerous runnings and FAILURES for it to build any kind of aura about it.
If the American Triple crown was won every year for a decade, it would lose its mystic before that decade was out.
I doubt any series of races will capture the imagination of racegoers if it made winning it easy and is won every other year ?
With only Nashwan and Sea The Stars doing the double since 1973, it may be argued that it’s hardly easy. New Approach came close; Golan, Sir Percy, beaten by better horses at their weaker distances. Add a 10f in between and we can hardly say it would be expected to be won every other year, given what we already see.
The aura of such races is the difficulty of it all, the rarity.
I think the general public has lost any aura for the Triple Crown or there would be a clamoring for Sea The Stars to be focused on the Leger, as opposed to what I perceive to be faint hope. Imagine the reaction of the American racing public if the Kentucky Derby & Preakness winner decided to skip the Belmont. I don’t think it’s the same.
No matter what manufactured triple crown is put up for contest it will never replace the Guineas – Derby – Leger, at least not in our life time, it would take numerous runnings and FAILURES for it to build any kind of aura about it.
If the American Triple crown was won every year for a decade, it would lose its mystic before that decade was out.
Like most series over many years, things aren’t always spread out evenly. Between 1935 and 1948, there were 6 Triple Crown winners, with 2 other years having the Derby and Preakness winner beaten in the Belmont. Since 1997, there have been 7 double winners trying, and failing, to win the Triple Crown, including twice having it happen 3 years in a row.
Yet still it represents the most desired achievement in US racing.
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