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Have any 3yos completed the 2000/Derby/Arc or 1000/Oaks/Arc treble?
At this hour of the morning I can’t think of any.
Closest I can think of is Dancing Brave. Don’t think any have managed it since the war.
Dancing Brave should have done it. I wonder however, had he won the Derby, whether they’d have gone down the Leger route rather than the Arc?
<br>
Fair point – he should have won the Derby no question.
Motivator and Sir Percy would have run close together I’m sure. I agree 100% that Motty’s Derby was poor, and also agree with the quote about a bunch of non-staying 3yos.
But at the end of the day, Motivator went on to be pipped by Oratorio twice over 1m 2f. So if people reckon Motivator was poor, then surely Oratorio is as well?
Just to remind you, Oratorio won the Jean-Luc Lagadere and finished runner-up to Shamardal in the Dewhurst. So does that mean Shamardal is poor? So therefore Hurricane Run, who finished 2nd to Shamardal in the French Derby, is poor as well?
So Heart’s Cry and Electrocutionist are poor as well? We’ll be lucky to have a horse rated 100 at that rate :biggrin:
Over 1m4f, Sir Percy would give 10lb and a 10 length beating to Motivator.
Unfortunately, I read Bulwark’s post after reading a chapter of "London Fields" by Martin Amis. The book is a masterpiece of impossible exaggeration and the literary equivalent of being drunk. Sentence retracted, but not the theme.
Motivator and Sir Percy would have run close together I’m sure
I disagree. And I backed Motivator to win hibernation money in the Arc so I have no axe to grind. I liked the horse. But he isn’t SP’s class. I’ll have to return to trappist silence about the matter until SP runs again and speaks for me.:biggrin:
Dancing Brave should have done it.
I agree, but like the Nashwan example, the colts owner Mr Abdullah, categorically wanted the to win the Arc. Had the Brave won the Derby then this would still have been the plan.
<br>Max<br>
(Edited by Maxilon 5 at 11:51 am on Sep. 19, 2006)
Oh dear, i find it very amusing that anyone thinks sir percy could have beaten motivator in last years derby, personally i dont think hed have finished ahead of walkinthepark. Will explain more fully later as in work. But ponder this for now sir percy fans – why was sir percy rated 121 for his derby win, yet motivator was rated 129+.
Quote: from Sal on 10:13 am on Sep. 19, 2006[br]Closest I can think of is Dancing Brave. Don’t think any have managed it since the war.<br>
Nope can’t find any at all. Allez France went close to completing the French equivalent: won the Pouliches and Diane then second in the Arc and then went onto win the Arc as a 4yo
Mill Reef was second in the guineas to one of the greateast milers ever before sweeping the derby and the arc (and the eclipse and the King George)
As regards the Motivator, Sir Percy thing. I think Motivator was a nice Group one horse at a mile and a half without being a superstar but I havent seen enough of Sir Percy over the distance to say anything really except that he has every chance of being the same.
SHL
Quote: from Bulwark on 11:48 am on Sep. 19, 2006[br]Oh dear, i find it very amusing that anyone thinks sir percy could have beaten motivator in last years derby, personally i dont think hed have finished ahead of walkinthepark. Will explain more fully later as in work. But ponder this for now sir percy fans – why was sir percy rated 121 for his derby win, yet motivator was rated 129+.<br>
<br>Walk In The Park could barely win a race before or after the Derby. Sir Percy on the other hand has won two Group 1’s and finished second in the Guineas. Motivator’s Derby was extremely poor. As for ratings, they baffle most of the time.
But he isn’t SP’s class
And just what is SP’s class???
Sir Percy on the other hand has won two Group 1’s and finished second in the Guineas. Motivator’s Derby was extremely poor.
Motivator also won two Group 1’s and while there was plenty of merit in SP’s Guineas run he was absolutely hammered by the winner and was a close run thing for the places.
While I am far from Motivators biggest fan….Sir Percy right now has not done much better than him though he has not had the opportunity just yet.
What has Sir Percy done?  Hmmmmmmm…let’s have a look, shall we?
1. Beat Dylan Thomas easily. The Ballydoyle horse has since won two G1’s beating the admirable Ouija Board in one. Motivator would not have got near Dylan Thomas or Ouija Board. Would he? I doubt it. Class horses keep class company.
2. Won the Derby, the Vintage stakes, and the most prestigious 2-y-o race in Europe, the Dewhurst. And it’s a matter of opinion whether HN, (RIP) was unlucky or not in the latter race. I happen to believe that Sir Percy would have won whatever. No-one will ever know for sure. Class horses run in the best races; and win them.
3. Was beaten in the Guineas by a specialist miler on top form, over a distance clearly short of his best. Motivator declined the Guineas because the stable knew it would not win. It simply wasn’t fast enough. In contrast, Sir Percy still managed to beat Araafa on the Rowley mile, a horse who now contests the QEII. At Group 1 level. Class horses beat other class horses.
4. The only horse to have beaten Sir Percy is the favourite for the Group 1 QEII.
Out of, I believe 61 horses. On soft ground, on good to firm ground, on good ground. Over 6f, 7f, (three times) and 1m 4f. I don’t follow time etc, but all of them can’t have been slowboat events. Class horses are versatile and take on each challenge presented to them.
(And if he was lucky against HN, (and against Hala Bek as some pundits speculate), how unlucky was he in the Guineas by racing on substantially slower ground? )
5. In his maiden, Sir Percy showed the ability to quicken. He repeated this in the Derby, both times from unpromising positions. The burst of speed he showed in the Derby was amazing. The mark of a class racehorse. Watch it again. 2 furlongs out he was beaten. Tickets flying in an arc towards the bin.
Motivator never quickened in any of his races. He was a good old fashioned galloper. Class horses have a turn of foot.
The latter had the opportunity to quicken up in the Arc and was left for dead by HR. Earlier, he was beaten for speed in the Eclipse. Then he was quickly retired. So we shall never know for sure whether he would acquire the ability to quicken so necessary in a top class racehorse. But he certainly never had it as a 3-y-o.
We’ll let the Arc (or the Champion) show how classy this horse is, Aidan. I don’t want to bore the board further. Tregoning is no fool. If he thought Sir Percy needed a race, he would have prepped him. Class horses don’t need prep races.
Apologies for the TC deviation.
I had a lovely long response and then the computer crashed!!!!
Beat Dylan Thomas easily
I must have been watching a different race…easily? Hmm… either way DT has improved again since then, SP has to prove he has.
Won the Derby, the Vintage stakes, and the most prestigious 2-y-o race in Europe, the Dewhurst.
Motivator also won the Derby and the Racingpost Trophy..came second in Europes top two 1m2f races.
Motivator declined the Guineas because the stable knew it would not win. It simply wasn’t fast enough.
Motivator did not run in it because he is not a miler, does that make SP superior to Galileo, Montjeu, High Chaparral and co of recent years….all 130 horses?
In contrast, Sir Percy still managed to beat Araafa on the Rowley mile, a horse who now contests the QEII.
Olypiciam O also beat Araafa that day as well…whats that make him?
how unlucky was he in the Guineas by racing on substantially slower ground?
So now he was unlucky to be absolutely ripped apart by George Washington in the Guineas?
I don’t want to bore the board further
No chance, disagree with your points but they are well argued.
I agree with EC that Motivator should never have stepped down in trip to 1m2f, even though he did still perform very creditably. Also, I think that unlike motivator Sir percy will almost certainly be a superstar in 1m2f races as thats the sort of horse hes always looked like, didnt have the speed to go with george washington in the guineas (yet credible) and was ridden like a 1mile/1m2f horse punching above his distance in the derby (luckily for him he never met a decent 1m4f horse that day). I do however think that Sir percy could possibly win the arc if its a snails pace as he probably has the best turn of foot in the field, yet, if its run as a true 1m4f race like last years i dont think he’ll even go close.
Motivators derby win however eclipses sir percys, Michael Bell specifically threatened to pull motivator out if the ground was good to firm (luckily so did racing numpties godolphin with dubawi), so they forced the epsom officials to water the track. <br>In doing this, they ruled out the chance of speed horses (like dubawi ? and oratorio) (like sir percy) coming from off the pace, because their stamina would be tested on the uphill parts of the course, and their speed would be blunted somewhat towards the end. Motivator therefore had his derby set up to be a test of a proper 1m4f horse and he humped them in a similar time to sir percys but on worse ground How weak the oppositon was is debatable, as gypsy king died, oratorio and dubawi were better horses over shorter. walkinthepark injured himself in the irish derby and has never recatured that form, motivator didnt just win quite well though he slaughtered them, <br>His end placing in the arc is not a true reflection of his actual performance however as the last place you want to be in a race run 4secs fast on soft ground is shadowing the leader (scorpion- hurricane runs pace setter, with hurricane well held to the rear), yet murtagh (in a poor judgement of pace and tacics) held him there, and even though he then kicked for home too soon and found that motivator was knacked a furlong out, he was only beaten by four very smarthorses who had been raced behind him (bago and hurricane came right from the back). If sir percy tried to hold the same position at the same clip hed have tailed off.
In all the pre race hype about visindar for the derby (fabre making out that he was shergar reborn), i was always looking for a horse that looked capable of throwing up a 125ish rating to possibly beat him, i was disappointed long before the race when the only two i saw were septimus (which was soon ruled out by the prospect of firm ground) and dylan thomas (who looked to have a stamina question on breeding and was subsequently murtagh’ed). <br>However the derby always looked like being a one horse race (visindar), with general no-hopers filling the field (halabek an sixties icon looked like having future potential but were nowhere near prepped enough) , the only horse with any real potential to throwing up something decent looked like visindar, visindar subsequently ran an epic stinker, and the no hopers went to the line in slow motion and the guineas horse cut his way threw them to win by his whiskers.
Not a great derby, not a great derby winner, not a great 1m4f prospect, if sir percy wins the arc in a decent time then i’ll take the abuse but i dont think it looks anywhere near realistic. Tregoning must be praying for a blackpool donley to set the pace, because a pace like the last 2 years should see him being turned over like a Stuffed Pig.
Cormack…doubt if Db would have taclked the leger. they had enough worries about him staying 12f (which was possibly real reason he lost the derby)
BulwarK…Sp may have been ridden like a 10f horse but as with DB, they might just now know that 12f is well within his compass. i think he won the derby despite his ride (rather than all the paludits that came the jockeys way) and im not sure that he handled the course or settled that well early on, which might make it even more creditable that he won.
i also sense from the stables comments that they feel he is a stronger horse now
On the other hand, i still think motivators derby win and his subsequent career has been knocked too hard. he quickened beautifully (didnt just gallop for me).
Edited till tomorrow. Just lost huge new post. It must be catching, Aidan!<br>:biggrin:
(Edited by Maxilon 5 at 11:10 pm on Sep. 19, 2006)
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