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I’m afraid your hope is misplaced – The Arc has decades of top class horses behind it. The Champion Stakes has David Junior and Twice Over, twice. No comparison I’m afraid, and a few quid won’t change that, for at least 20 years.
Sir Henry Cecil, like Brigadier Gerard’s owner, John Hislop, puts his love of English racing before anything else. The Champion Stakes, first run in 1877, was and still is held in high regard by many devotees of the turf. The Champion Stakes has thrown up many famous winners since its inception, although admittedly, the quality has somewhat diminished in recent years. Nevetheless, horses like Pretty Polly, Bayardo, Fairway, Petite Etoile, Brigadier Gerard and Pebbles could all be described as top class.
The Arc, first run in 1920, primarily attracted French horses and it wasn’t until the great Italian trained ( British bred ) Ribot burst onto the scene that international interest began to grow. Yes, it is correct to say that in recent decades The Arc has become the pre-eminent middle distance race for 3 yr olds and upwards, but in terms of history and significance, The Champion Stakes more than holds its own – certainly among British racing enthusiasts.
Sir Henry Cecil’s Frankel will hopefully make sure that The Champion Stakes again has a winner more than worthy of its illustrious title.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Frankel is outstanding, but that doesn’t mean he will be everyones favourite horse. There are other criteria depending on the individual. Frankel could have cemented his place in other peoples hearts and minds by running in the Arc, but it’s simply not to be and as a result is a slight blip. It doesn’t take away from the quality of Frankel or his achievements to date. My favourite flat horse is Goldikova. She got into battles in different countries, and had to dig deep on many occasions. Frankel would have beat her no problem over a mile in both of their primes. Frankel is the best miler i’ve seen, but that’s not saying much as i haven’t saw any of the true greats other people speak of apart from Sea the Stars. The first guineas winner i remember was Henrythenavigator. If Frankel wins the Champion Stakes he would probably be the best 10f horse i’ve saw if he wins it convincingly enough and the decent horses turn up. However, you know in the future something is going to win over 8, 10 & 12 furlongs, and Frankels name will pop up. I suppose it could be ironic that some people absolutely love how he demolishes a field to define his equine greatness, yet the same way he demolishes a field could also be the reason people can’t take to him, because he hasn’t been tested enough. I was hoping in my own way that he would run in the Arc, but i’ll still remember him as that Cecil horse who was too good for his generation. I’m simply not qualified to explain how good he is, but i know what i’ve saw. By the way, don’t read too much into the nagativity, Frankel will get a hell of alot of new fans when he turns up for the Champion Stakes. Picture the scene of Frankel and Cecil at Ascot. If that doesn’t endear him to more people then nothing will. Mark my words, this one race will get him a legion of new fans, and you’ll even see some of the doubters change their minds.
I’m afraid your hope is misplaced – The Arc has decades of top class horses behind it. The Champion Stakes has David Junior and Twice Over, twice. No comparison I’m afraid, and a few quid won’t change that, for at least 20 years.
(PARA 1) Nevetheless, horses like Pretty Polly, Bayardo, Fairway, Petite Etoile, Brigadier Gerard and Pebbles could all be described as top class.
(PARA 2) Yes, it is correct to say that in recent decades The Arc has become the pre-eminent middle distance race for 3 yr olds and upwards, but in terms of history and significance, The Champion Stakes more than holds its own – certainly among British racing enthusiasts.
PARA 1 – Listing top class Arc winners would take more than two lines.
PARA 2 – "Recent Decades" – Recent Decades? Decades? Yep, The Arc is the race that matters. In 200 years, it will only have been the case in recent Centuries however.
Its my apology not yours – was a stupid comment to make and I retract it.
But regarding the Champion, I respectfully disagree. The Arc winners list will always be a "Who’s Who", and the Champion Stakes will always be a "Who Else". Not running in The Arc certainly doesn’t detract from Frankel’s marvellous career, but winning it would certainly have added something.
I did think it was a very un-PC thing to say!
I take your point and agree to an extent but am very hopeful (as I am sure Ascot are) that the Champion list will get better every year. As I say it has a huge purse and with 10f becoming the ever popular middle distance trip there should be plenty of enticement for connections. Cirrhus Des Aigles last year followed by Frankel this would not be a bad start!
I’m afraid your hope is misplaced – The Arc has decades of top class horses behind it. The Champion Stakes has David Junior and Twice Over, twice. No comparison I’m afraid, and a few quid won’t change that, for at least 20 years.
Then I am afraid you are not only un-PC but short sighted also. The Champion may have had some lean years and some average winners (as has the Arc) but, as Himself says, it has had its fair share of great ones too.
You are also naive if you think there will not be a difference in the race now that the prize money has gone up from 213k when Twice Over won it in 2010 to 737k now.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I’m amazed Frankel leaves so many cold, maybe it’s because he’s hardly ever been a backable price.
Punters build affection for a horse through being able to cheer them on having backed them.
Just a thought.
Not wishing to generalize that seems a purely masculine perspective.
I’m afraid your hope is misplaced – The Arc has decades of top class horses behind it. The Champion Stakes has David Junior and Twice Over, twice. No comparison I’m afraid, and a few quid won’t change that, for at least 20 years.
Sir Henry Cecil, like Brigadier Gerard’s owner, John Hislop, puts his love of English racing before anything else. The Champion Stakes, first run in 1877, was and still is held in high regard by many devotees of the turf. The Champion Stakes has thrown up many famous winners since its inception, although admittedly, the quality has somewhat diminished in recent years. Nevetheless, horses like Pretty Polly, Bayardo, Fairway, Petite Etoile, Brigadier Gerard and Pebbles could all be described as top class.
The Arc, first run in 1920, primarily attracted French horses and it wasn’t until the great Italian trained ( British bred ) Ribot burst onto the scene that international interest began to grow. Yes, it is correct to say that in recent decades The Arc has become the pre-eminent middle distance race for 3 yr olds and upwards, but in terms of history and significance, The Champion Stakes more than holds its own – certainly among British racing enthusiasts.
Sir Henry Cecil’s Frankel will hopefully make sure that The Champion Stakes again has a winner more than worthy of its illustrious title.
Claiming that Ribot was British Bred is somewhat tenuous. He was bred by Federico Tesio from 2 Italian bred horses but foaled at the National Stud. He is only "British" bred because Tesio had sent Romanella to be covered after foaling.
By that sort of logic, Rudyard Kipling would be Indian bred.Yeah and the Dubai World Cup is the richest horse race in the world – Viva Monterosso!
Yeah and the Dubai World Cup is the richest horse race in the world – Viva Monterosso!
Your posts tend to take on a different tone in the evenings. Ummmm……..
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Getting personal because I don’t agree with you Joni? Not necessary.
But don’t beat around the bush – If you have something to say, don’t insinuate – say it.
Getting personal because I don’t agree with you Joni? Not necessary.
But don’t beat around the bush – If you have something to say, don’t insinuate – say it.
Apologies – out of order.
You don’t seem to want to listen to other views though which is normally most unlike you. You are a poster who sees both sides. I did actually say that I agree with you!!!
Of course the Arc is a great race. The greatest middle distance race in Europe. I am not saying it isn’t. But I can’t see why you want to dismiss the Champion out of hand and use as evidence a couple of horses who might not have been that good when I could easily do that with the Arc if I wanted to. I wouldn’t because that would be stupid. There have been many great winners of the Arc but all me and a couple of others are saying is that the Champion too has history. That is has thrown up some great winners. That it is a race that has been re-launched in the last two years as the climax of the Champions series and is the final race on Champions Day.
You are clearly peeved that they chose The Champion over the Arc and have made that point but why slag off the Champion? It was a great race last year and promises to be a great race this.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Duplicate.
Although you must stop duplicating your posts!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Since 2000 the lowest rating for the Arc is 122.75 in 2004.
In the same period the rating of the Champion Stakes has only exceeded that lowest Arc rating on 2 occasions, in 2000 when Kalanisi beat Montjeu 124.25 and last year when Cirrus des Aigles (inelligible to run in the Arc) beat So You Think 125.50.
Unfortunately whatever history the Champion Stakes had has been forsaken by moving it to a different racecourse, now it has a history of 1 year.
Since 2000 the lowest rating for the Arc is 122.75 in 2004.
In the same period the rating of the Champion Stakes has only exceeded that lowest Arc rating on 2 occasions, in 2000 when Kalanisi beat Montjeu 124.25 and last year when Cirrus des Aigles (inelligible to run in the Arc) beat So You Think 125.50.
Irrelevant. No one is saying the Champion is the better race.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
The thing is that "great" horses have won the Champion Stakes, winning the Arc can make horses "great". I cannot think of any horse that earned the epithet for winning that race in particular.
Funny yo should say that ‘J’,I remember when I was a teenager playing football one day and this Girl I fancied ran onto the pitch and pinched our ball,she ran off and stopped on the bridge over a river,she threatened to throw the ball into the River showing off in front of her mates so I picked her up and jumped onto the parapet of the bridge and just took off! Hindsight is a wonderful thing and if I’d known I would swallow the filth in that river and be physically sick for a week later I probably wouldn’t have done it.The best thing to come out of it was she became my Girlfriend for the next 2 years,we lost touch for over 20 yrs then bumped into each other.To this day she says it was the best chat up line she’s experienced and we remain friends still.You are obviously a good judge of character!
Ginge is not a confrontational character and would certainly not intend to offend you.I wouldn’t think twice about it myself though! 
Send that story to hollywood, change the ending so you become romantically engaged, get Kate Hudson to play the lead female, and BAM … film.
Disappointed in this story. Now if you pushed her in the river …
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