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Latin intelligent- (stem of intelligēns, present participle of intelligere, variant of intellegere’
to understand
,
Something far removed from feigning membership of some elitist cognoscenti, that in reality can’t see the wood for trees.
Latin roots,
Reet
, are not the same as English definitions.
Your gloss is (once again) about
wisdom
, not
intelligence
! In the broad church of pundits and analysts, Willoughby has his own, well-developed style which sets him apart – and you must forgive his admirers (such as myself) for finding his contributions valuable.
He is not
"feigning"
anything. He is what he seems, a questing intellectual. So talk of
"elitist cognoscenti"
is unpleasantly close to sneering, and does you no credit.
Any horse which demonstrates overwhelming superiority over its peers at any distance is a true champion, too.
You would think that would be true, but Rock Of Gibraltar’s miserly 128 rating disproves that theory. Duel G1 winner at 2yo, 5x G1 winner as a 3yo, but it proved nothing as shown by the rattlings of the elitist cognoscenti (thanks reet, love that descriptor) who thought 7 G1s indicated nothing out of the ordinary.
Frankel needs to win at 10f IMO, to be called anall time great
. Being an all time great at one single distance is all well and good, but it isn’t a be all and end all.
- Total Posts 17716
Any horse which demonstrates overwhelming superiority over its peers at any distance is a true champion, too.
You would think that would be true, but Rock Of Gibraltar’s miserly 128 rating disproves that theory. Duel G1 winner at 2yo, 5x G1 winner as a 3yo, but it proved nothing as shown by the rattlings of the elitist cognoscenti (thanks reet, love that descriptor) who thought 7 G1s indicated nothing out of the ordinary.
How could the intelligent handicappers (to revise that nasty succubus of a phrase) do anything else, when
Rock of Gibraltar
tended to win (when he did) by such minimal distances – that is, when he wasn’t beating comparative rags?
Next you’ll be talking
"The Rock"
up as
"The People’s Horse"
, or something equally demotic.
Ugh.
Sea Bird himself never won at less than a mile- …
True, not as a 3 year old he didn’t – but he did win the Criterium Blaison-Lafitte (6f) as a 2 year old.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
How could the intelligent handicappers (to revise that nasty succubus of a phrase) do anything else, when
Rock of Gibraltar
tended to win (when he did) by such minimal distances – that is, when he wasn’t beating comparative rags?
Next you’ll be talking
"The Rock"
up as
"The People’s Horse"
, or something equally demotic.
Ugh.
Some would call that ‘only did what he needed to, cleverly’, or ‘can only beat what’s in front of him’ is another one I like. My point is merely that winning a gaggle of G1 races over one mile is not an indicator of greatness although I more than take the point that an impressive win counts for more than a hard worked sh hd.
"The People’s Horse"? I’d never use such a shocking phrase. That is territory of The Sun and Daily Star alone.- Total Posts 17716
Reading some of the comments I have come to realize a difference in the way we measure horseflesh and I find that very interesting. Here in America, we don’t seem to be as quick to throw the word great around. Oh yes we’ve had hundreds but out of the total foal count? Great horses have to EARN IT.
To say a Sea Bird is all that on just 8 starts is nothing short of preposterous by our way. Look at what it took to do for the great Seabiscut to become great and then legend? That horse used to run 25 races a year. That was when he would also be riding the box cars for weeks and weeks.
No jumbo jets for those war horses.
The very same was done with Sea the Stars. You people, with all due respect are sure quick to crown. Forgive us here in the states but he’ll never ever be in a discussion of top 20’s. Not even close. Not even in the same zip code. Any arguments and i’ll be forced to use the "Z " word
So help me I will lol. In all seriousness, you seem to think one season is enough for immortality. We don’t. Although we have our sentimental greats who’s careers were cut short. We also take into account the conditions and the heroics in impossible situations. We embrace the greatness there is in defeat. GREAT RACES! RIVALRIES! Along with longevity. And never forgetting the great handicap horses of past. We had horses like Forego and Dr. Fager. They both gave away tons of weight year after year. Forego the great gelding tested 5 generations. The likes of Foolish Pleasure, Ancient Title, Honest Pleasure, Prove Out, Cougar II, Wajima and even Secretariat. Forego won at 7 furlongs and 2 miles. He was HOTY 3 straight.
The good Dr. Fager won four championships in one year including best grass horse! Breaking track records while conceding the weight.
I am in no way putting down your game or your great horses. I admire many of them and although less than 10% of my action is on the Euro game, I enjoy the different style of handicapping I find myself using. Lets be frank though. You guys like perfection and retirement in short careers. You love the image. The dream never dies. Well that’s here too but the Kentucky explosion of the last century definitely rose the worlds standards for racehorses and also put the American game at the top of the racing world.I will sadly concede that the circle looks as though it’s now turned. Your game remains healthy while the breed along with the overall quality of ours is in decline. Still its not that you dominate us or anything. And we pray here for the game to right itself. Drugs and emphasis for speed and a quick buck are killing our game. Nowadays you win one big race and you have the shed. Regardless, the Coronation of horses like Sea the Stars and Frankel is a laughable thing to us here in America.
The thread title made me do a double-take
-Naughty New Yorker in the starting gate next to him
-Sidney’s Candy to lock him in a speed duel
-Goldikova to pick up the piecesMy father once told me that an absolute champion on the flat was a horse that could win in Group 1 company from 6f to a mile and a half. I tend to agree.
The discussion of what constitutes true greatness has been had many times on TRF and, with all due respect to both your father and your good self, what you’ve said above simply isn’t true. Sea Bird himself never won at less than a mile- does that disqualify him from champion status? And don’t get me started on that useless carthorse Eclipse….
An ability to defeat all-comers over a wide variety of distances does, indeed, prove that a horse is a great champion; however, it is not the sole criterion. Any horse which demonstrates overwhelming superiority over its peers at any distance is a true champion, too.
I did win at less than a mile, but I do completely agree with your point.
Hard task. I would try QE11. Cape Blanco setting a fast pace but not full tilt. Canford to sit about 5 or 6 off Frankel and try and do him last furlong, If Frankel hasn’t already won by then……
Blackbeard to conquer the World
the Brigadier was considered a champion miler yet won the King George over a mile and a half. My father once told me that an absolute champion on the flat was a horse that could win in Group 1 company from 6f to a mile and a half. I tend to agree. If Frankel keeps running in mile races surely he is just a mile ”champion”.
Of the post-140 horses Brigadier Gerard was the exception rather than the rule wasn’t he? And he to all and intents and purposes didn’t really ‘get’ 12f anyway: his KG is I believe widely regarded as his toughest race, and may have contributed to the reason he lost the B&H at York
For instance Abernant to the best of my knowledge never ran further than 6f, Sea-Bird I think never won at 1m or indeed raced at less than 10f as a 3yo. But they are rightly regarded as ‘champions’
It would be very nice indeed if Frankel does develop stamina as he grows-up, and wins over at least 10f as a 4yo; hence my – and I’m sure everyone’s – wish that he’s kept in training
Prior to the Sussex I was of the opinion Frankel was a sprinter-miler and while I still believe he could win a G1 sprint I do now think he has more stamina than I gave him credit for. But this year I reckon connections are correct in leaving him at 8f
I have to agree that horses do become ‘great’ in this country very quickly
. However, when one talks about horses running many races over several seasons well, that doesn’t happen so much these days either side of the pond and, correct me if I’m wrong, but, like Sea the Stars, Secretariat was retired at the end of his three year old career.
- Total Posts 17716
I have to agree that horses do become ‘great’ in this country very quickly
The Observer
, he was the world’s top rated racehorse at the time of his injury, so they can’t be done under the Trades Descriptions Act!
"Greatness"
, oddly, tends to make itself manifest in clusters rather than (say) the convenience of one "great" horse every ten years. I think it would be folly to deny the quality to
Zarkava
,
Zenyatta
,
Sea the Stars
and
Frankel
– despite the fact that they’ve all been running during the last three years. And that’s leaving
Goldikova
out of the frame!
"Greatness"
is, as so many posters have said, not something which is measured in facts and figures, but something which is
felt
and
experienced
.
I believe that Ballydoyle tried that against New Approach at the Curragh using Warsaw to go head to head and then closing with Henry the Navigator.However New Approach saw off Warsaw and then Henry when he made his move, the result being that Curtain Call got up for second and HtN was relegated to third. (the race is available for viewing on the Racing Post stallion section). So you need a real closer for the second or third horse if you decide to take him on.Probably need Frankie on the final challenger.One might try differently (i.e. go to the front and wind up as you go) with Cape Blanco when he is ready if you adopt his Irish Champion tactics.
Your not comparing New Approach with Frankel.
Frankel is a far better horse. A great infact.
Why the reluctance to find out if a Galileo horse stays a mile and two? Is the fear of defeat the driving force behind Cecil’s decision? John Oxx put Sea the Stars to the test without knowing if he would stay the Derby distance.I for one refuse to believe that a Galileo colt won’t stay a mile and two.If he fails to stay then breeders will have that information when selecting him.Is that not a good thing?
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Moehat, you are serving me what is called in the states, a Larry King Softball. Allow me to hit it out of the park and thank you
Secretariat was HOTY at 2 and 3! At three, he did what was then the impossible by being the first TC winner since Citation. A 25 year drought. Along the way he broke both track and world records, many which still stand today. His Belmont still stands today as THE epitome of a thoroughbred performance. He also took on the creme of the older horses and they were great ones in their own right. He got beat on occasion. His own stablemate Riva Ridge, himself one sloppy track away from a TC pushed Secretariat to break the world record in the inaugurel Marlboro Cup when Big Red beat the best older field that could be assembled and it was packed with talent.
He then answered the grass question in style and beat the best older grass horses both times he ran including Tentam and Kennedy Road. His finaly in Canada where he cruised caused many to say he was superior on the lawn to dirt and THAT was saying something.The most remarkable thing about Secretariat however is that he was foretold to be the second coming. Syndicated for big baloons after his 2 year old HOTY season, he was PROCLAIMED to be the next TC winner. Losing the last prep before the Derby due to an absess kept secret by his trainer, the skeptics were out in force. Getting the bottom he needed in that loss however allowed Secretariat to deliver. BIG TIME! Track records, world records. CLUTCH! Thats what he was. ALWAYS win the big one. Simply amazing. So Secretariat did it all. And you were saying about STS?
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