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Wayward Lad.
Though he never won a Gold Cup what a fantastic horse. The lack of this one prize on his CV seems to overshadow his other achievements.
Is underrated the new value?
It seems so Rory,
There are many that seem to be putting up those who have won several races but not run to a really top mark. Lammtara could be said to be over-rated because he won many races but not by far. The races he won were hardly classic classics either, probably below average quality. He never produced a performance of outstanding ability.
Voy Por Ustedes is one of my current favourite horses. But he was lucky to win the Arkle. Had an unfair advantage of a rediculously large 5 year old allowance. Without which he would not have won. Master Minded winning the Champion Chase (without allowance) by 19 lengths as a 5 year old has shown how wrong that was.
Won a poor Champion Chase, then beaten out of sight by a true Champion. Yes, he might be better at 2 1/2 miles, but has not beaten anything yet of outstanding merit (that has run to form), or a good horse by a long way. When he has come up against a really top class horse (that has run to form) has been beaten. Kauto Star and Master Minded.
Love his tenacity, will to win, but on form I can’t see how he is under-rated.Hawk Wing, now that was an under-rated horse.
Agree with himself, Dubai Millenium was under rated.Mark
Value Is EverythingWon a poor Champion Chase, then beaten out of sight by a true Champion. Yes, he might be better at 2 1/2 miles, but has not beaten anything yet of outstanding merit (that has run to form), or a good horse by a long way. When he has come up against a really top class horse (that has run to form) has been beaten. Kauto Star and Master Minded.
Love his tenacity, will to win, but on form I can’t see how he is under-rated.Mark
That’s the problem though isn’t it? If we underrate a horse like VPU, then when he puts up a huge run, like Aintree last year, we explain it away by saying that everything else ran below form. Take Master Minded out, and he’s beaten the field by a distance, proving that he is a very good horse indeed. His timefigure/topspeed fig backs that up, but we tend to look for justification to pull him down in ratings terms. Bottom line is that he’s out of the very top drawer.
Most under-rated horse of all time?
Got to be L’Escargot.
Two Cheltenham Gold Cups.
Grand National
Irish NationalSo unfortunate to fall around the same era as a triple Gold Cup winner and a triple National winner.
I was pretty good as well. Won a National, second in a national, fourth in two Nationals, fell when in the lead in a National, 4th in a Gold Cup (beaten a short head for 3rd), 3rd to Sabin Du Loir and Dawn Run in the Sun Alliance Hurdle. Not bad for a plodder!
"Under-rated" can’t really be portrayed as having had their level of ability cramped for reasons unjustifiable, otherwise Wayward Lad (for instance) would have spent his days skooshing up in handicaps. Or to put it another way, Tartan Gunna before Friday was one of the most "under-rated" horses going. It’s got to apply to those who are under-heralded rather than under-rated.
"Under-rated" can’t really be portrayed as having had their level of ability cramped for reasons unjustifiable, otherwise Wayward Lad (for instance) would have spent his days skooshing up in handicaps. Or to put it another way, Tartan Gunna before Friday was one of the most "under-rated" horses going. It’s got to apply to those who are under-heralded rather than under-rated.
Well said Friggo.
As for the wider subject of the thread, the achievements of Monkerhostin make astounding reading for a horse who seems to be treated as just another handicapper these days. He’s won a Rendlesham, a Coral Cup, a Boylesports, a Haldon Gold Cup and a Whitbread, placed in the Tote Gold Trophy, Paddy Power (twice), Ascot Hurdle, Peterborough Chase and King George as well as finishing fourth in the 2007 Gold Cup.
And how many of those did he achieve for Oliver Sherwood. Spare a thought for poor old Surprising who went the other way in the swop deal that took Monkerhostin to Philip Hobbs.
And how many of those did he achieve for Oliver Sherwood. Spare a thought for poor old Surprising who went the other way in the swop deal that took Monkerhostin to Philip Hobbs.
Bit harsh ~he did win that Novice Hurdle at Sedgefield.
In general, I’d say that the horses that are under-rated, or are under-appreciated are 2.5 milers over the jumps, and 7f specialists on the Flat.
As others have noted, when they run outside their zone and are beaten, that is what they are being judged on, rather than what they achieve in their niche.
Won a poor Champion Chase, then beaten out of sight by a true Champion. Yes, he might be better at 2 1/2 miles, but has not beaten anything yet of outstanding merit (that has run to form), or a good horse by a long way. When he has come up against a really top class horse (that has run to form) has been beaten. Kauto Star and Master Minded.
Love his tenacity, will to win, but on form I can’t see how he is under-rated.Mark
That’s the problem though isn’t it? If we underrate a horse like VPU, then when he puts up a huge run, like Aintree last year, we explain it away by saying that everything else ran below form. Take Master Minded out, and he’s beaten the field by a distance, proving that he is a very good horse indeed. His timefigure/topspeed fig backs that up, but we tend to look for justification to pull him down in ratings terms. Bottom line is that he’s out of the very top drawer.
I think it’s the exact opposite of what you are saying in this case Rory. The probelm is they overrated VPU’s QMCC win and as a result we had 5 year old horse shooting to the top of the rating above two horses who had achieved 3 times what he had at the time. Namely Denman and Kauto Star.
Master Minded never got the trip. Tamarindbleu ran the same sort of stinker he did in the QMCC weeks earlier. Now we have VPU winning a race where he was absolutely thrown in and he’s some sort of superstar?
As I said earler he’s a lovely horse but he is what he is and is no Moscow flyer or Badsworth Boy.
I’ll may be sticking my kneck out here but I will be amazed if he doesn’t find one or two too good for him at Cheltenham. He wont get things his own way there like he has in his last two runs.
Officialy, not under-rated, but I have noticed that Dubai Millenium has more than a few detractors.
I think he was a helluva racehorse and over a mile and a quarter would have matched strides with the very best of them.
He never beat anything of note (on turf anyway) that ran to their form. I’d actually say he was over-rated on ratings in particular.
On dirt I couldn’t really say because its not my game but on turf there have been better.
I think the old saying is that they can only beat what is put in front of them. I remember the same accusation being aimed at Nijinsky following his triple crown success of 1970. Ah, but he beat nothing of note, the cynics cried. Like DM, not his fault the opposition weren’t in his class.
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I don’t know about under rated horses, I think it depends on the trainer how certain horses are viewed. Certain trainers get hyped up by the media and everything they train is seen as the next Arkle or Dancing Brave. VPU is very good, butas has been said, he’s not one of the best of his era, never mind all time. He came along when the best 2 milers had just gone, which while not his fault, means he’s got grade 1 wins that Well Chief would have got had he been 2 or 3 years younger. If you look at all his form, its just not that great when you see the horses behind. His best win was against Madter Minded at Aintree, but its pretty obvious that for whatever reason that was not the real Master Minded. Saturday was a nice run, but Gwanako? Hardly the benchmark to determine superstardom.
one trainer who has never got the credit he deserves or the horses his talent should have earned him is Noel Chance. There was a time when his Festival win and place record was unbelieveably good, admittedly its gone down a bit in recent years, but he’s had nothing to work with, but 2 Gold Cups, a Sun Alliance (he should have had another with Mr Mulligan) and numerous placed horses is great going for a small yard with no big patrons.Had there been a Ryanair in those days Native Upmanship would have been a superstar….
Al Capone II – true legend.
I doubt Tidal Fury will ever get the recognition he deserves over here either.
Master Minded was beaten by being stopped to a walk at the second last, don’t take anything away from VPU but that’s the reason MM was beaten.
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