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Here’s a link to the results from the equivalent Saturday in 1998, the year before the first Shergar Cup.
http://www.racingpost.com/horses2/resul … 1998-08-08
Can you look at that Ascot card and honestly say that we have lost a wonderful day’s racing which should immediately be reinstated?
You’d get a smaller crowd, containing fewer first-time racegoers. How would that be a victory?
Okay, let’s try something else.
Take away the ‘team competition’, take away the silly silks, take away the way it’s been promoted & take away the post racing concert. And what are you left with? You’re left with a six race card, £14,754 to the winner of each. It’s just six races & everything else you can take or leave.
Now, add the concert back in then look at the cards Haydock presented on their concert evenings. The Ascot card today was King George standard by comparison.
And speaking of the King George, the crowd at Ascot today was bigger than the crowd for that. The racing purists were offered the chance to see some genuine class & they opted to stay at home with their feet up. Ascot know better than you do.
Thanks Scamperdale – well said.
I’m a huge fan of the Shergar Cup and will defend it on most issues (although the silks are still not distinctive enough).
When Ascot inherited the idea from Goodwood the idea of an owner’s team was a busted flush and the only thing worth saving was the popular international jockeys element. It has now developed into a pretty sensible competition without the unnecessary team managers concept.
It is a one-off and as has been mentioned attracts a much bigger crowd than King George Day. Yes the bands have something to do with that but that is the overall family atmosphere. Lots of other tracks have bands and some have more famous/recent names than Ascot wheeled out today. It is interesting that the Premier Enclosure was a sell out when, if it was just for the bands, you’d have thought the cheaper enclosures would have sold out first.
I like AP’s posts – usually well considered – but I think calling the jockeys "mostly B" is very unfair.
I recruited Doug Whyte and Yutaka Take – both coming back after a few years break but still at the top of their trees back home, particularly Doug who is champion again in one of the most competitive countries.
Lemaire and Peslier are not B list by anybodies imagination and Demuro did win the Dubai World Cup. The British team may have lacked (an injured) Ryan Moore but Paul Hanaghan is our current champion jockey and rode really well to be victorious in the Silver Saddle.
As for the races themselves it is much better – as an overall concept – to have handicaps rather than conditions races as it means it is unlikely there will be short priced favourites as used to happen with the 2yo races and the condition sprint etc.
The races are well over tariff – hence trainers like Mark Johnston enthusiastically supporting the event. I often hear that punters would like 10 runner competitive fields with decent priced favourites – this is what the races provided. Yes you have to factor in the jockeys but all of them this year were of a good level.
As for reserves this did rule out ante-post and very early betting but once the fields were finalised most punters would have known what they were likely to be. Reserves work in many other countries, like Ireland, and certainly stop the fields cutting up if the ground changes dramatically.
The purists could watch Newmarket and Haydock but I think the casual TV watcher and racing enthusiat will have enjoyed the spectacle.
Adrian,
I take your point about the overseas jockeys present – I was really commenting on the local representation. Suspect Ryan Moore would have been at Haydock if fit anyway to ride Class On Class.
Let me say that I have no objection at all to the existence of this one day jamboree – trawl back in the archives and you’ll find me defending it as staunchly as anyone in 2007 when I owned a horse that was a reserve for one of the races. My opinion of the event is unchanged.
I just thought the change from the original ambitious dream of a meeting that would grow into one that included Group class races, to the current compromise (less money, lower grade etc, pop concert afterwards) held up a mirror to the overall condition of the sport in 2011.
The original meeting still sticks in my memory for the electrifying performance of Diktat – the best I ever saw at Goodwood up to ten days ago!
AP
I’m fairly ambivalent about the event to be honest though the "concert" argument is a bit of a red herring. Epsom, Sandown and Newmarket all have evenings where the concert is really the main feature and the racing is the support.
Whether the meeting would stand without the concert is a moot point because the racecourse wouldn’t have the meeting without the concert. Today’s meeting is perhaps an example of where the meeting might work perfectly well without the music but agai Ascot won’t give that up.
Rather like Mixed meetings or the recent "ladies" card at Carlisle, Shergar Cup day is a nice little one-off that has its place. I certainly agree the format now is much better – good prize money and closely-constructed quality handicaps. There’s no need for Group races with the meeting so close to Goodwood, York and other meetings.
I wouldn’t lose any sleep if it went but I have no problem with it being in the schedule.
- Total Posts 17716
Not sure there’s much point in debating this with you, Pinza, since you seem very entrenched in your position, not to say a little angry…[snip]…Whether you like it or not, the event is a success, even when it attracts almost no advance publicity. There is no reason to suspect it might be killed off, despite your prayers. It’ll be difficult for you to absorb the lesson that the world doesn’t revolve around you and your desires but everyone has to learn it eventually.
You’re probably right about the lack of point in debating this.
As for your stern personal advice goes let me reassure you that (a) far from being angry about the Shergar Cup, I am saddened by it, and putting my ideas across as vividly as I always try to do; and that (b) I do know which way the world revolves. To misquote W. S. Gilbert, few men have such a low opinion of themselves (and few men deserve it so little.)
I wish I could make you see what is sad about the Shergar Cup for me, and for plenty of other people. Reading
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
might help.
It is about
quality
. Not the quality of the races, which is no better and no worse than many a mid-week afternoon at Catterick or Folkestone (though without the interest of the odd 2yo race to give us a sense of future.) Nor about the quality of the jockeys, which is higher than average, though not all have the Ascot experience to ride the course consistently well.
It is, rather, about the
quality
of the
experience
, in this case the
mass experience
. About the value of
ritual
, that silver thread which we drop at our communal peril. It is also about
focus
, about getting briefly away from musak and the pervasive, intrusive pop culture – rather than going the other way by importing naff, bared-legged, cheer-leading nymphets to add sleazy erotic relish to the races.
Racecourses have always been all things to all men, it’s true. You’ve only got to glance at Frith’s marvellous painting of
Derby Day
to see that. But where we allow ourselves to be communally brainwashed into defining "success" solely in fiscal terms, and sacrificing
quality
for that "bit of fun", then we’re in danger – and society is in danger.
Do you not feel that shoehorning horse racing into a commercial team sport and warm-up for pop concerts is – not to put too fine a point on it – a kind of betrayal of history, and of the horse?
I do not suppose you do. I feel I am wasting words. And I am not putting matters in a way to encourage you to reflect on these things. And that, with apologies, is my failure.
I’ve never really seen the harm in pop concerts post racing. In fact we went to Carlisle on 2nd July this year. Our horse came 2nd, the weather was brilliant as were Texas after racing. It really was a cracking evening and I’d be confident the vast majority of the attendees would agree. I’m sure Carlisle racecourse viewed the evening positively also.
Where I would have an issue is if the admission price is increased due to a concert taking place. I don’t think that’s fair on anyone that’s along for the racing and not the music.
Re the Shergar Cup I’m a recent convert as it’s clear racecourses need to diversify in order to attract better crowds. Given the number of entries from trainers, the decent prize money on offer and the manageable field sizes for punting purposes I don’t really see what the fuss is. It’s a one off annual event and I’m sure Ascot would argue that today was a success. The only downside that would put me off attending is the Ascot clientele and the viewing facilities but with 30k today as opposed to 60k at the Royal meeting I’d don’t think that would be an issue either.
In summary, if you don’t enjoy the Shergar Cup just put a line through it and I’d suggest using the time to study the form for the Ebor meeting which is upcoming in a couple of weeks.
I don’t mind people having an occasional concert after racing. Don’t mind a competition as long as it is for individuals. But the fact it is a team competition encourages
team
tactics. It goes against the rules of racing. There can not be one day a year where normal rules are unofficially suspended.
Value Is EverythingI am a Shergar Cup convert – I loathed it initially but am now a great fan.
I accept it is an anathema to many – we are all entitled to our opinions and we all have our likes and dislikes, after all I railed against the Filly Factor.
Yet the Shergar Cup is but one meeting out of 1,480 fixtures and there were three other meetings this afternoon for those who really cannot survive without having a bet and who did not want to bet on this event.
The racing was competitive, with some cracking finishes. There were ten runners in every race and there was a rare chance to see some decent overseas riders who would not normally be seen in the UK. In terms of the team competition it really did go down to the line . . . . and those who backed Ireland at 10/1 going into the last race will certainly not be complaining about the afternoon.
The team colours, whilst still not perfect, were infinitely better than they were last year. I was certainly able to follow all the races first time.
Plenty of the crowd were there primarily for the concert but were also interested in the racing. I spoke to several first timers this afternoon and yes, shock horror, some said they really enjoyed the afternoon and would come racing again.
The area in front of the stands were packed for the actual racing and it was always busy, as busy as at any Ascot Saturday meeting, round the parade ring.
I personally believe the Shergar Cup can hook in far more new racegoers than any number of Ben and Brian initiatives.
It wasn’t all perfect, having Matt Chapman as the co-presenter was a mistake – but then again I am biased on that front, so I am probably not an objective observer on that one.
The "opening ceremony" was too soon before the first contest and the runners in the first were notably more fractious, I suspect because of what was going on in the parade ring.
I don’t mind people having an occasional concert after racing. Don’t mind a competition as long as it is for individuals. But the fact it is a team competition encourages
team
tactics. It goes against the rules of racing. There can not be one day a year where normal rules are unofficially suspended.
Because it puts the noses of a few gamblers out of joint? Are 1479 other fixtures not enough for them?
And in any case, it’s not one day a year when normal rules are unofficially suspended, it’s all the time. Include a pacemaker in any race & that pacemaker will not be running on it’s merits, which is against the rules. Are there ever any sanctions? No.
So it’s no good coming over all sanctimonious over ‘team tactics’ when they happen in big race after big race after big race.
All this talk about folk only being there for the concert afterwards and yet not one of you could mention who the concert existed of.
In actual fact the crowds dwindled dramatically after the final race suggesting that folk were there for the racing and not the concert.
But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good whinge
The Shergar Cup always has been, and in my opinion, always will be, very successful. Ascot don’t need to market it any different, they don’t need to change a thing. They regularly get close to 30,000 race-goers, by far the biggest attendance on this given Saturday.
Whether you like the quality of racing or not get over it, it’s a once a year event, that’s all.
Can’t believe what I’m reading here
I think I might have missed on something, if anything…Anyone none the wiser would think the place was transformed into heaving brothel for the day!
Poptastic bare-legged horsey fun, with the odd drink? Sounds excellent.
As for reserves this did rule out ante-post and very early betting but once the fields were finalised most punters would have known what they were likely to be. Reserves work in many other countries, like Ireland, and certainly stop the fields cutting up if the ground changes dramatically.
Reserves have no bearing on AP betting and would create chaos if used on a daily basis but I would make an exception with their use for this competition as they are.
With all the racing we have I find it hard to raise an objection against the competition just for the one day. Puzzled why they don’t have 12 runners in every race and thus every rider gets a ride in every race.
Think an all female team is worth a go although as Hayley wasn’t keen on the all female Carlisle card don’t know what she’d make of it.
Obviously Chapman was a disaster and the non stop verbals from Vince could have been halved in quantity.
Is there a reason they always go for an 80’s concert? Late 60’s or early 70’s is much more my cup of tea.- Total Posts 17716
It’s an odd idea that simply because it attracts a large crowd for drinks, Matt Chapman and pop concerts (though only half the number that come to a given day at the Royal meeting) then it is therefore a much-needed "success".
Odd, because if there’s one sector of the Sport which is doing extremely well financially, it is the racecourses – Ascot not least is making a hell of a lot of money, like most of the rest, through corporate sponsorship and utilisation of facilities on non-race days. This kind of shindig is therefore not necessary to the place’s fiscal well-being, and not desirable in terms of racing quality. It is about corporate greed.
How’s about this for a suggestion? We seem to agree that, as a team event, it is not proper racing within the BHA rules. Why not make it into a kind of exception, like Arab racing, which is excluded from the official racing programme? It could even be run with Arab horses, rather than thoroughbreds. Certainly the results shouldn’t be counted in any participant horse’s racing record, nor should they count towards the jockey’s championship.
…… (though only half the number that come to a given day at the Royal meeting)
A wholly inappropriate comparison as there is the Silver Ring at the Royal meeting and not at any other Ascot meetingd.
Also factually incorrect as the numbers on the first two days of the Royal meeting are 43.3k and 38.7k respectively and I think you will find 30k is way more than half.
30k is also on a par with the numbers on King George Day
We seem to agree that, as a team event, it is not proper racing within the BHA rules.
Is that a "Royal We" . . . . give me one instance of where team tactics have been evident in any Shergar Cup race.
There is hardly a murmur when team tactics are deployed in most Group One races.
Probably the wrong argument with which to flog the Shergar Cup?
Why not make it into a kind of exception, like Arab racing, which is excluded from the official racing programme? It could even be run with Arab horses, rather than thoroughbreds. Certainly the results shouldn’t be counted in any participant horse’s racing record, nor should they count towards the jockey’s championship.
Where do you draw the line? An argument could be made, for example, that hands and heels races are run to different rules – should they be excluded from a horses record? I would certainly suggest those races skew the form more than any Shergar Cup race, where as I have already stated there has been no proven case of adoption of team tactics.
You’ve both touched on something which occurred to me today, one of the problems with racing:
Every race at every course that involves a thoroughbred racehorse at every level (bar point to points) is shown on television & in thousands of locations on almost every high street & it’s all put up for betting purposes.
Which means that if you want to hold a ‘novelty’ event or try out an innovation, it’s going to be scrutinised in the public eye & thousands of people will have a financial stake in it. This is not a problem that effects ANY other sport. Rugby have their sevens tournaments, football have their endless friendlies, golf has matchplay or pro-am events & no-one ever complains that they ‘devalue the sport’ Not making every event a betting heat gives other sports that freedom to try different things.
So if they wanted to run the Shergar Cup races & not make them available for off course betting, I’d probably approve of that. After all, having just had another look at the prize money (which isn’t down on last year Pinza, not surprised you didn’t bother to check) it seems that everyone gets a prize. No wonder the trainers support it!
The only comparison with the fuddy duddy reaction to the Shergar Cup that instantly springs to mind is Twenty20 cricket. They introduced it with cheerleaders, music played after boundaries & wickets, hot tubs on the pitch, post match concerts etc etc. The purists said ‘it devalues the game’ & when Atomic Kitten played a concert after the very first finals day people said (yep you’ve guessed it) ‘people only went for the concert.’
Twenty20 cricket has jettisoned much of that & settled into it’s strengths (that it starts at convenient times & doesn’t take up a whole day) Shergar Cup day no doubt will too.
Is that a "Royal We" . . . . give me one instance of where team tactics have been evident in any Shergar Cup race.
Having read some of Paul Hanagan’s tweets, I don’t think team tactics are likely to be an issue. Assuming the GB team is the same as this year, Hayley Turner is more likely to give him a clip round the ear as she goes by!
I think I might have missed on something, if anything…
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