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Edit – And if you asked any race goer to name one race that he is remembered for, they would say the St. Leger
If you asked me, a racegoer, I’d say the GP de Paris because it was the race which (in the words of the RP) "marked him down as a genuine top-flight racehorse" and set a new (though dubious) record for the Arc course.
And I’m sure a few others in the UK (and its Irish suburbs) would have noted this performance.
Steve
I remember him most for giving H.Run a race in the Irish Derby, in what was supposed to be a cakewalk for teh French raider.
Jack, I wish I could share your enthusiasm for Emirate Skyline… he certainly left no impression of impending greatness to come in his 3 year old career on me.
Also, I should hope Frankie rides Palace Episode over ES as on 2 year old form, he has roughly a stone in hand. ;)
Quote: from Meshaheer on 6:39 pm on May 9, 2006[br]The 2000 Derby wasn’t bad either, if I remember rightly! :o <br>
Oops, I forgot about Sinndar :banghead:<br>When I think of the Derby, what horses am I reminded of?<br>Shirley Heights, Shergar, Mill Reef, Nijinsky, High Chaparrel, Lammtarra, Troy etc. <br>Going back to 1981, I can only think or five or maybe six winners that have really been any good at the highest class. The rest of them, you may say, just happenned to be best on the day of the race.<br>Where are the days when the very best from the UK, Ire and France stood toe to toe on Epsom Downs. Usually, you have to wait for the Coronation Cup to see that scenario now.<br>In the annals of history, who will be remembering the likes of North Light, Kris Kin, Benny The Dip, Shaamit and Erhaab, to name just a few average winners of recent years? The 70s will always be the golden days for the Derby IMO. I’m afraid, today, where it is an owner’s privilage to get his horse to the Breeders Cup and it’s multi million dollar purses, the very best are simply not going to be running at Epsom and risking the rest of a potentially lucrative season. You do get the odd exception to that rule, where a horse is obviously going to get 12f. But generally, the Derby is comprised of twice or thrice raced, immature 3yo.
Ah, the glorious 70’s with Morston, Snow Knight and Empery!
Each year, at the time of the race, you’d be hard pushed to name an English or Irish trained horse with a live chance of winning who sidestepped it. Pentire is the most notable recent horse missing but that was due to him not being entered rather than a conscious decision to miss the race.
Admittedly the best of the French do tend to stay at home or go to the Curragh but this has pretty much been the case since the 1960’s or even earlier.
The Derby is a unique test and the unique mix of characteristics it rewards (speed, stamina, agility, soundness, temperament) are just those on which the breed should be (and, indeed, has been) founded.
It remains a wonderful spectacle and a fantastic race which has provided three outstanding champions in it’s last six runnings.
"Going back to 1981, I can only think or five or maybe six winners that have really been any good at the highest class.  The rest of them, you may say, just happenned to be best on the day of the race."
I think that’s just you, RD.  Our survey says, nine or ten would be closer to the mark.  Which would you dispute out of Shergar, Golden Fleece, Teenoso, Reference Point, Nashwan, Generous, Lammtarra, Sinndar, Galileo, High Chaparral, plus, of course, the Derby winner that never was, Dancing Brave?  A reasonable argument could also be made for Dr Devious and Commander in Chief.
As Corm suggests, each decade has its high and low spots – and although there was a poor run in the late 90s this was nothing new.
As for the ‘twice or thrice raced’ criticism – as it stands the majority of the Derby market leaders (Sir Percy, Horatio Nelson, Olympian Odyssey, Championship Point, Septimus, George Washington, Palace Episode, Primary, Linda’s Lad) have run at least 4 times already, with all the major trials still to come.
Quote: from cormack15 on 12:14 pm on May 10, 2006[br]It remains a wonderful spectacle and a fantastic race which has provided three outstanding champions in it’s last six runnings.
Don’t you mean 3 outstanding champions from its last 10 runnings and none in its last 3!;)
Interesting discussion. For me Motivator was good winner last year and among the top 3 year olds. He certainly didnt do the race any harm.
Whats more of a puzzle is why the race produced so many good horses in the eighties and so many duds in recent years.
SHL
When even a much-maligned renewal such as Kris Kin’s win in 2003 featured the subsequent King George, Irish Derby and Leger winners along with the following year’s winner of the Queen Anne and Eclipse, I reckon it’s doing ok.
Quote: from SirHarryLewis
Whats more of a puzzle is why the race produced so many good horses in the eighties and so many duds in recent years.
SHL,
I’d guess it’s because most breeders are now aiming to produce 10F horses, not Derby winners. Around the world, the biggest prizes – Dubai, Hong Kong, Singapore, Breeders Cup – are at 10F.
And the stallions with the biggest valuations are those that produce the 10F horses.
How many recent Derby winners have been dropped to 10F for their subsequent races (e.g. Motivator) rather than aimed at the St Leger?
If you read the book about Sangster and Magnier and their campaign in the 80’s, the aim was to buy the Derby winner as a yearling as that provided the biggest return in the stallion market. But that no longer applies and Derby winners aren’t that commercial unless they can win at shorter or go on to take the Arc and/or Breeders Cup Turf.
AP
Some people assume that if George Washington has any chance of staying the Derby trip, Aidan O’Brien will want to go there. But the horse might increase in value more if he wins races at a mile/10 furlongs. As AP says, the days are gone when the Derby was the most important race for a future stallion.
The Derby is still a great race.
Like anything though you’re going to get good and bad spells. Look at the 80’s – Shergar, Dancing Brave (unlucky loser), Reference Point, Nashwan, all terrific horses.
The Derby then went through a poor spell but more recently it’s picked up again with top class winners like – Lammtarra, Sinndar, High Chaparal.
The best three year old mile and a half horse usuallywins the Derby. In recent years though with a couple of exceptions the three year year olds just haven’t been as good as the best of the older horses. For me that’s always disappointing but it’s swings and roundabouts.
Could that be something to do with the way in which horses are being trained these days? It seems the trend to hold onto horses longer to allow them to mature so the older horses tend to come out on top as they are more developed and a bit more battle hardened? Could be wrong with that as i’ve only really been watching properly for about four years… but may have something to do with it
Quote: from Sal on 1:10 pm on May 10, 2006[br]"Going back to 1981, I can only think or five or maybe six winners that have really been any good at the highest class.  The rest of them, you may say, just happenned to be best on the day of the race."
I think that’s just you, RD.  Our survey says, nine or ten would be closer to the mark.  Which would you dispute out of Shergar, Golden Fleece, Teenoso, Reference Point, Nashwan, Generous, Lammtarra, Sinndar, Galileo, High Chaparral, plus, of course, the Derby winner that never was, Dancing Brave?  A reasonable argument could also be made for Dr Devious and Commander in Chief.
As Corm suggests, each decade has its high and low spots – and although there was a poor run in the late 90s this was nothing new.
As for the ‘twice or thrice raced’ criticism – as it stands the majority of the Derby market leaders (Sir Percy, Horatio Nelson, Olympian Odyssey, Championship Point, Septimus, George Washington, Palace Episode, Primary, Linda’s Lad) have run at least 4 times already, with all the major trials still to come.<br>
Actually, I was using Shergar as the benchmark year, so he didn’t count in my calculation. Teenoso was a mudlark that turned up in a bog at Epsom. My six were
Nashwan<br>Lammtarra<br>Sinndar<br>High Chaparral<br>Generous <br>Reference Point
I’ll concede that I missed Galileo :biggrin:
… not necessarily in that order. Golden Fleece only raced four times in his career. Hardly a proven champion. What did he beat? He won the Ballymoss Stakes and Nijinsky Stakes. Big deal. <br>Dancing Brave was a champion, but didn’t win the Derby, so I discounted him ;)<br>Commander In Chief won an Irish Derby, and Dr Devious won a Dewhurst and an Irish Champion Stakes.
I’ll give you eight, but i’m 50/50 on Dr Devious. Even counting the latter, nine from a sample of a quarter of a century is not a great ratio for the supposed premier 3yo race. How many went on to prove themselves against the older generation?
Where are all the great Guineas winners? How many even bothered to turn up at Epsom? That is my primary point.
It is just my opinion of course. We all measure a horse’s greatness by different criteria.
<br>There is one exception to the ’12F horses not in vogue’ – if the horse is a son of Sadlers Wells it doesn’t matter what his best trip is, he’s going to be popular as a stallion and his yearlings will sell well.
Best current examples – Galileo and Montjeu.
Astonishing when you look back at all the money Sangster and Magnier spent at Keeneland trying to buy stallions and Sadlers Wells was bred from a mare that Sangster owned and raced – Fairy Bridge.
AP
‘Horses that stay 12f just aren’t in vogue any more’
Yeah, no-one is interested in these plodding Montjeu beasts at the moment.  And Sadler’s Wells, boy is he unpopular.  :biggrin:
(AP beat me to it, but you can add Dalakhani (son of Darshaan to that list).
RD, check out Golden Fleece’s form.  He wasn’t rated champion 3yo in Europe for no reason, having beaten Assert, who went on to confirm the form in great style.  Vincent O’Brien rated him pretty highly, which is good enough for me.  As for poor old Teenoso, he doesn’t get the credit he deserves, purely for being able to act on soft ground, as well as the fast ground he handled when winning the King George and Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud.  Read Timeform’s essay from 1984 and learn.
As for all these great Guineas winners, which ones would you like?  Most of those with half a chance of staying have turned up at Epsom in the last 15 years – and looking at the list of Guineas winners reminds me of how many duff horses have won that race since 1981.
Tirol and Mystiko, the fabulous Island Sands?  Rodrigo was a non-staying ninth, Zafonic would have been madness to try.  Mister Baileys, Pennekamp, Entrepreneur, King of Kings, Refuse to Bend, all tried, some with credit, but not as much credit as Golan, who went closest to emulating Nashwan.  King’s Best missed the race with a last minute injury, Footsteps never got the chance.
So your main gripe is – Rock of Gibraltar and Haafhd did not run in the Derby.  Hmm.
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