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I’m not convinced SHL. I don’t think it’s all that difficult to make comparisons across the generations – within reasonable limits anyway.
As regards the Irish hurdlers were talking about here, even if you take your measurements via handicappers/ordinary horses, there is still ample evidence which shows that Istabraq was miles better than any of them.
I don’t agree that the Hardy Eustace, Macs Joy, Brave Inca etc were capable of "massacring" ordinary horses. Indeed, if you look through their race records, the instances of "massacre" are very few and far between. Harchibald may have looked capable of winning certain races by 20L, but we all know what he found off the bridle.
Istabraq – to use but one example – beat the 135-rated (9 times a winner and place another 17 times over hurdles) Derrymoyle by 15L without coming out of a canter, in the 1999 December Hurdle. As an example of the "massacre" of an ordinary handicapper, it’s significantly better than anything that the recent Irish contingent can offer, imo.
Katchit has limited experience outside juvenile company (for the obvious reasons) but there doesn’t appear to be too many gaping holes in his overall form. It’s perhaps a little too early to make comparisons with HE, BI etc, as regards consistency, longevity etc. But in terms of his Champion Hurdle form, I don’t think it’s too far away from the best of what those horses were able to achieve in their prime. IMHO, of course.
I’m not convinced SHL. I don’t think it’s all that difficult to make comparisons across the generations – within reasonable limits anyway.
As regards the Irish hurdlers were talking about here, even if you take your measurements via handicappers/ordinary horses, there is still ample evidence which shows that Istabraq was miles better than any of them.
I don’t agree that the Hardy Eustace, Macs Joy, Brave Inca etc were capable of "massacring" ordinary horses. Indeed, if you look through their race records, the instances of "massacre" are very few and far between. Harchibald may have looked capable of winning certain races by 20L, but we all know what he found off the bridle.
Istabraq – to use but one example – beat the 135-rated (9 times a winner and place another 17 times over hurdles) Derrymoyle by 15L without coming out of a canter, in the 1999 December Hurdle. As an example of the "massacre" of an ordinary handicapper, it’s significantly better than anything that the recent Irish contingent can offer, imo.
Katchit has limited experience outside juvenile company (for the obvious reasons) but there doesn’t appear to be too many gaping holes in his overall form. It’s perhaps a little too early to make comparisons with HE, BI etc, as regards consistency, longevity etc. But in terms of his Champion Hurdle form, I don’t think it’s too far away from the best of what those horses were able to achieve in their prime. IMHO, of course.
"Istabraq – to use but one example – beat the 135-rated (9 times a winner and place another 17 times over hurdles) Derrymoyle by 15L without coming out of a canter, in the 1999 December Hurdle. As an example of the "massacre" of an ordinary handicapper, it’s significantly better than anything that the recent Irish contingent can offer, imo. "
Well Im an istabraq fan so no real arguments for me. My thinking on this was who was the really good 2 mile yard stick that we could judge him off of?? Decoupage was for a while being touted by many as was Dato Star. Not really the most reliable type.
Also, you could argue that Hardy Eustaces humilation of Mighty man in 2006 (even allowing for the weight difference) with another 10 lengths back to lough derg was similar to the performance against the useful Derrymoyle. I was also similarly impressed by Harchibalds performance in beating Rooster Booster in the Christmas hurdle as well as some of his soft ground experiences Newcastle. Im not saying that these horses were a Sir Ken, or an Istabraq but for me they were consistent and genuinely top class. Many times the division goes through periods when it just might not have that.
SHL
The description “golden age” was really what I took issue with, SHL, rather than any attempt to crab Hardy Eustace, Brave Inca, Macs Joy or Harchibald.
I’d certainly concede that all four were better than Hors La Loi III, for example, and I’m happy to call them top-class, and have Istabraq in the “exceptional” bracket – it seems a fair enough compromise to me.
PS. I will not hear a word said against Dato Star!
early thoughts indeed. I hear Katchit should be out at Kempton on Oct 19 – very early I’d have thought, hoped he might be left for a bit longer…so we must look forward to that.
Read in yesterdays racing post that Captain Cee Bee is out for the season, thats fairly disappointing.
Read in yesterdays racing post that Captain Cee Bee is out for the season, thats fairly disappointing.
That is very disappointing, was looking forward to seeing him run this season.
Any ideas what is wrong exactly? ? ?
Gaz, the report in the Racing Post just quotes the trainer as saying that the horse has met with a set-back.
Colin
as a 7 year old he seemed a bit old for a Supreme Novices horse, so I did wonder if he’d had training problems prior to that.
Gaz, the report in the Racing Post just quotes the trainer as saying that the horse has met with a set-back.
Colin
Thank you Colin.
Such a shame.
Great to have the jumps back and I’ve enjoyed reading the whole thread.
My thoughts are –
Captain Cee Bee is injured for the season which is a shame, hopefully back next season.
Cousin Vinny could be special as long as he jumps those tricky little hurdles, has massive amounts of speed.
I like Afsoun (placed in a Champion Hurdle remember) and FiveForThree for the Arkle, possibly Venalmar too.
Sizing Europe in the Champion Hurdle, on heavy already ante post so fingers are crossed he gets there in one piece. Cannot knock Katchit who won’t be far away, as will Binocular and the tough Osana but it’s Sizing for me all the way.
Master Minded looks pretty much unbeatable, can Tidal Bay cause him problems ?
He’s a top horse but I’d back Tiday Bay for the RyanAir Chase, which by the way could be a corker with the likes of Tidal Bay, Voy Por Ustedes, Jack The Giant, Barbers Shop, Our Vic etc etcCannot budge on Inglis Drever for the World Hurdle, as long as the hill stays put, the winner will be him.
The horse I am backing in the World Hurdle is Franchoek. He looks a stayer to me, hurdles well and this race is the likely target. The reason being JP McManus has Straw Bear in the Arkle, Binocular and Jered in the Champion Hurdle so let Franchoek get a corking ride off AP and get a place (or even a win ??).Trafford lad for the SunAlliance Chase, like the look of him.
Thoughts please on ………
Cousin Vinny for the Supreme Novices ?
Voy Por Ustedes for the Gold Cup ?
Which big races will Tidal Bay go for ?
Which horses to look for in handicaps ? (I think Riplling Ring could be ahead of the handicaper)Can’t agree with any of that FoF. Brave Inca has never ran to anything like his top 2m (or extended 2m) form over a trip of 2 1/2 or 3m.
I happen to think he was running (and winning to a respectable strike rate) in a golden era of Irish 2m hurdlers – Hardy Eustace, Macs Joy, Harchbald, Newmill, Essex, Back in Front, Asian Maze – and more.
Personally (and i admit my opinion would, and should, mean the square route of nowt to connections) I’d give him a spin in the Bula (Cheltenam appearing to completely suit) and should he show no spark, show him a big green field.
To be honest PC I was never a fan of any of those hurdlers during that era. I was a bit disslusioned by the lack of quality and never really researched Brave Inca’s form. Just watching him Hardy Eustace and co doing there bit was enough to put me off.
I can’t believe you think that was a Golden Era for me it ws the worst Era in the history of the champion Hurdle second to none. Horses like Lanzarote, Comedy of Errors, the great Persian War, Istabraque Night, Sea Pigeon Nurse and IMO the best of all time "Bula" you could call Golden but Hardy Eustace???? never in a million years
I honestly don’t think BI would blow wind up tyhe likes of Binoculars backside and if he can’t jump fences or get further over hurdles it will amaze me if he wins anything worth talking about.
His best chance would be in the likes of the Fighting Fifth while the top notches like Katchit ( a good example) are running 90% fit……..other than that I can’t see him creating much of a stir
Great to have the jumps back and I’ve enjoyed reading the whole thread.
My thoughts are –
Captain Cee Bee is injured for the season which is a shame, hopefully back next season.
Cousin Vinny could be special as long as he jumps those tricky little hurdles, has massive amounts of speed.
I like Afsoun (placed in a Champion Hurdle remember) and FiveForThree for the Arkle, possibly Venalmar too.
Sizing Europe in the Champion Hurdle, on heavy already ante post so fingers are crossed he gets there in one piece. Cannot knock Katchit who won’t be far away, as will Binocular and the tough Osana but it’s Sizing for me all the way.
Master Minded looks pretty much unbeatable, can Tidal Bay cause him problems ?
He’s a top horse but I’d back Tiday Bay for the RyanAir Chase, which by the way could be a corker with the likes of Tidal Bay, Voy Por Ustedes, Jack The Giant, Barbers Shop, Our Vic etc etcCannot budge on Inglis Drever for the World Hurdle, as long as the hill stays put, the winner will be him.
The horse I am backing in the World Hurdle is Franchoek. He looks a stayer to me, hurdles well and this race is the likely target. The reason being JP McManus has Straw Bear in the Arkle, Binocular and Jered in the Champion Hurdle so let Franchoek get a corking ride off AP and get a place (or even a win ??).Trafford lad for the SunAlliance Chase, like the look of him.
Thoughts please on ………
Cousin Vinny for the Supreme Novices ?
Voy Por Ustedes for the Gold Cup ?
Which big races will Tidal Bay go for ?
Which horses to look for in handicaps ? (I think Riplling Ring could be ahead of the handicaper)You are a braver man than me if you back some of those lot ante-post.
Cousin Vinny would be a nutty bet at this stage. I would bet he won’t even run let alone win the Supreme.
VOP for the Gold Cup. They would lay you a million to one on that happening.
I really hope they have at least one crack at Master Minded with Tidal Bay he is such a good horse and very very speedy. If not the QMCC will be another procession and MM will go off around 4/11 fav which would be a crying shame. Wouldn’t bet against him wherever they send him.
It’s going to be one very tough season for Franchoek as I can’t see him beaten any of the top 3 milers and he certainly wont be winning anything decent over 2 miles. I wonder what they will do with him seems to me he will be hard to place.
Inglis Drever…….getting long in the tooth perhaps? as you say a long as the hill is there but his yest muct also remain..hard to say at this time and perhaops best we wait and see.
Very very good horse Rippling Ring and will be a smashing chaser one day. I beleive Nichols won’t send him chasing until he faces the truth or it smacks him right between the eyes. He is depspaerate to have a good hurdler….but for me RR is not a CH hurdle horse
Early thoughts.
Master Minded will hopefully stick to what he’s best at – 2m chases. If he does then I think it will take a mighty performance or a fall to beat him.
Kauto Star to star round Kempton again on Boxing Day. Can’t think of one (apart from the tank
) who’d get close to him on that flat track. 
and
On Raglan Road to progress onto better things.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Wonder if those crazy bookies would be prepared to offer 3/1 again for the King George this season? 6/4 is a bit stingy for a horse some are saying is a has-been. 2/1 would be like all my birthdays came at once
Paul Nicholls has stated that Master Minded will be run over 2miles for the following season whilst he is ‘efficient’ at that distance. Efficient? ? ? I’d say.
Voy Por will be stepped up in trip this year.
My Way De Solzen will be dropped back in trip too which confirms what we thought would happen with My Way, anyway.Good move for us to drop My Way back in distance, i think that ie what he has been crying out for in his past few races.
Not sure if he will go for the King George though in December, more likely to go for the Peterborough first, and then go from there.
Katchit will go to Cheltenham in the Boylesports, in December, following 1 run, if all goes well.
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