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Never mind all that – where’s our fecking Cheltenham 2009 forum, you sheep-worrying, Flattie hick?
PS. Welcome to all new TRFers.
PPS. Don’t worry – me and Corm go waaay back.
Kasbah Bliss takes on Yeats at the weekend.
He certainly won the Prix Gladiateur nicely last time, though I can’t help but feel that Doumen will have to give him a decent break at some point if he’s to avoid sending the horse over the top by the time Cheltenham comes around.
Like everyone cant wait to see the usual suspects out and about, but Captain Cee Bee is one i am looking forward to and how Brave inca gets back into it im not sure he will be as stong in the 2 miles divison is there any chance he will run at a different trip?
also hope Al Ella wins at Aintree againIf they wan’t Brave Inca to be winning races they will have to run him over a decent trip. Even at his best he wouldn’t be in the same class as this crop of 2 mile hurdlers IMO
However I hope he comes back with a bang..the more the merrier as they say.
Can’t agree with any of that FoF. Brave Inca has never ran to anything like his top 2m (or extended 2m) form over a trip of 2 1/2 or 3m.
I happen to think he was running (and winning to a respectable strike rate) in a golden era of Irish 2m hurdlers – Hardy Eustace, Macs Joy, Harchbald, Newmill, Essex, Back in Front, Asian Maze – and more.
Personally (and i admit my opinion would, and should, mean the square route of nowt to connections) I’d give him a spin in the Bula (Cheltenam appearing to completely suit) and should he show no spark, show him a big green field.
I can’t agree with the description "golden era" , PC. I’d suggest "Bronze Age" might be more appropriate.
Much as Brave Inca and Hardy Eustace were talented and genuine, both fell some way short of being truly top-class 2m hurdlers (when set against Istabraq and Moscow Flyer, to use very contemporary examples). Macs Joy would be pitching at more or less the same level as HE and BI, Harchibald we know all about, and the remainder were even farther short of a ‘golden’ standard over 2m, imo.
Connections apparently haven’t ruled out a novice chasing campaign for Brave Inca, though I suspect that’s unlikely. The Hattons Grace and December Hurdles are being targeted, if the gelding remains over the smaller obstacles.
With respect Grasshopper opinions are opinions. Harchibald well and truly put champion hurdler Rooster Booster in his place, and was in turn beaten well enough by dual winner Hardy Eustace. There may not have been an Istabraq among them (Moscow Flyer over hurdles is more questionable) but the sheer strength in depth was certainly impressive.
Katchit doesn’t make the 1st 5 of Hardy Eustaces 2nd win, or Brave Incas win, for me.
PC, I think what you meant to say was "Well-reknowned 6yo dodgepot Harchibald, put well-reknowned 10yo dodgepot Rooster Booster well and truly in his place".
Frankly, that Kempton line of form tells us nothing about either horse. Self Defense also put Rooster Booster in his place that season – in his very next race, in fact. Make of that what you will.
And for me, it’s absolutely clear that Rooster Booster failed to go through with his effort against Hardy Eustace in the 2004 Champion Hurdle, in much the same way as Harchibald a year later.
Moscow Flyer may never have won a Champion Hurdle, but he still achieved a higher level of form in his second season over hurdles, than all of Hardy Eustace, Harchibald and Brave Inca did in their careers. In my humble opinion, of course.
The Irish hurdlers you mentioned were certainly evenly-matched and the races were competitive whenever they met……..but their limitations were pretty-much exposed in the process. Katchit has probably already achieved a comporable level of form, and if he hasn’t, there’s probably only a lb or two in it.
Agree to disagree then. A past it Harchibald showed Katchit the way home at Newcastle the way he never could to Hardy or Brave Inca, even in his prime.
No chance that Katchit has improved since then, given it was his first race out of juvenile company? Or that a stiff track suits him better?
Indeed, Katchit’d juvenile form has generally proven to be very strong, with Punjabi generally upholding it all over the pace. If you want to go really crazy with it, you can take a line through Lounaos from the Triumph Hurdle, extrapolate it to the AIG Hurdle, and Katchit has the beating of Hardy Estace/Harchibald by about 20L!
But such a suggestion would be daft, I’m sure we can both agree on that.
However, if your contention is that Newcastle is/was a good as Katchit is, then I think you’re wrong. It’s an opinion you are entitled to hold though.
It isn’t – i just never saw Harchibald cruise by Hardy or Brave Inca so easily, best form or not.
Using how much Harchibald "cruised" as a barometer of performance, is a dangerous game, imo.
It maybe is – but Harchibald never beat Hardy Eustace, never mind by 3l+, cruising or not. A triple festival winner may possibly have had his ‘limitations exposed’ but those limitations must be lofty.
Pretty lofty, yes – but let’s retain some perspective.
Let me quote from Chasers & Hurdlers 2005:
"The use of the adjective ‘golden’ implies both rarity and preciousness, some near ideal or almost perfect state. It may be premature to talk of a "golden age" for steeplechasing, to compare with the era of Arkle, Flyingbolt, Mill House and Dunkirk in the 1960’s, but these are certainly golden days for the 2 milers."
Timeform refer, of course, to Moscow Flyer, Azertyuiop and Well Chief, and it’s clear that the three did represent a high-water-mark for 2m chasers, going back for a longish time.
The same cannot be said of the band of talented Irish hurdlers you mentioned – especially so when both Istabraq and Moscow Flyer were capable of better hurdling form as recently as less than 10 years ago.
I’m not suggesting that Hardy Eustace, Brave Inca and the rest are without merit – only that they must be viewed in context, and that renders the "golden age" suggestion erroneous……….imo.
I would certainly agree that Moscow Flyer, Well Chief and Azertyuiop represent a higher level of 2m chasing than the group i referenced do of 2m hurdlers.
On reflection possibly "golden era" was also stretching things, but i maintain Brave Inca, Hardy Eustace et al remain under-rated (especially Hardy), and the two mentioned above certainly (currently) superior to current Champion Hurdler Katchit.
This really is great…Just goes to show how much of an impression these great batch of hurdlers left on out minds…
This thread was set up to discuss big races and it revolved back to the great hurdlers of the past few years.It really was a golden age of hurdlers…How anyone can try argue anything else would want to remember all the great battles these horses had between them for the years involved…
Cheltenham-Punchestown-Newcastle
Really was a great era and i for one am privilaged to say i was at most of them meetings to see it all unfolding.
I can’t agree with the description "golden era" , PC. I’d suggest "Bronze Age" might be more appropriate.
Much as Brave Inca and Hardy Eustace were talented and genuine, both fell some way short of being truly top-class 2m hurdlers (when set against Istabraq and Moscow Flyer, to use very contemporary examples). Macs Joy would be pitching at more or less the same level as HE and BI, Harchibald we know all about, and the remainder were even farther short of a ‘golden’ standard over 2m, imo.
Connections apparently haven’t ruled out a novice chasing campaign for Brave Inca, though I suspect that’s unlikely. The Hattons Grace and December Hurdles are being targeted, if the gelding remains over the smaller obstacles.
All guesswork this. But I have to disagree with what your saying. You have to judge horses partly by what they do to the base level horses….ie handicappers since they always maintain a level that you can measure off of. In hardy eustace et al., there seemed to be a group of horses capable of massacre ring ordinary horses. Harchibald in particular was pretty spectacular on occasions. The fact that they were so consistent, so injury free makes them easy to judge. I like Katchit. I thought the champion hurdle was a bit of a strange race so Im really looking forward to seeing Sizing Europe again.
Ultimatley comparing horses across generations is virtually impossible
SHL
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